4th edition, The fantastic game that everyone hated.

[Evenglare]

Okay, obviously not EVERYONE. I personally loved it, still love it. I was just playing fire emblem earlier and I was thinking to myself, holy moly this game is like 4th edition! Then I got to thinking about all the other tactical rpgs I LOVE, then I came to realize, most of them are 9/10 or 10/10 games and they all play like 4th edition. Yeah 4th edition is like a tactical RPG along the likes of Final Fantasy Tactics, Fire Emblem, Vandal Hearts, Vanguard Bandits and the others... how is this a BAD thing?? Those games have extremely deep story lines that are explored in between battles. I don't know, i guess this topic is just me wondering what could have been if 4th edition had been released under ANY other name than D&D. It would have been a glorious time indeed.

Mod Note: Hey, watch the language, will ya? This is a family friendly place, and we don't want folks pinging the language filter. Thanks! ~Umbran

 

[timASW]

Most of those games had a story whose depth could be unfavorably compared to a footbath.

 

[FireLance]

Just a few random thoughts on this issue:

1. If 4e had not been released as a version of D&D, it might have languished in obscurity. As it was, although its prominence made it the target of criticism from several quarters, it also won it many fans.

2. Many of the criticisms of 4e are not directed at the tactical combat aspect. They tend to focus around: lack of simulation (disassociative mechanics), length of combat (grind), table norms such as "wish lists", lack of support for non-combat aspects of the game, etc.

3. To a certain extent, you can have too much of a good thing. If the tactical combat aspect of the game is so interesting that it dominates table time (to the extent that it feels like a video game where you fast-forward through the cut scenes just to play through the battles) players who are used to a more exploration or interaction heavy playstyle may feel something is missing.

I do agree with you that it is a fantastic game, though.

 

[Jester David]

4th Edition was great at what it did. But what it did was too narrow. D&D traditionally has catered to a wide variety of playstyles, often in a single campaign. Sometimes you want the fight to be quick and loose (bar brawl, beating up a couple sentries) and sometimes you want a large set-piece fight.

 

[Mercurius]

Another off-putting aspect for many had nothing to do with mechanics or rules, but presentation and "fluff" that veered away from the classic Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms D&D that long-timers identified with. For some, dragonborn, eladrin and shardminds should not have been brought into being at all, for others they should have been more marginalized as variant options. I'm guessing that the latter is what will end up happening in 5E - they'll be around, but the core game will be more traditional.

Or maybe that's just wishful thinking?

 

[S'mon]

Another off-putting aspect for many had nothing to do with mechanics or rules, but presentation and "fluff" that veered away from the classic Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms D&D that long-timers identified with. For some, dragonborn, eladrin and shardminds should not have been brought into being at all, for others they should have been more marginalized as variant options. I'm guessing that the latter is what will end up happening in 5E - they'll be around, but the core game will be more traditional.

Or maybe that's just wishful thinking?

Dragonborn in the PHB was definitely a step too far IMO. It results in Dragonborn cropping up randomly in adventures where there's not really a thematic place for them.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I think we're seeing an interesting move from 'everything is core' to 'everything is optional' - also known as 'put it in a module'. I think really they'd be even better off if the 'core' system was just rules, and the first published races and classes are equally optional as everything that comes afterwards.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Another off-putting aspect for many had nothing to do with mechanics or rules, but presentation and "fluff" that veered away from the classic Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms D&D that long-timers identified with. For some, dragonborn, eladrin and shardminds should not have been brought into being at all, for others they should have been more marginalized as variant options. I'm guessing that the latter is what will end up happening in 5E - they'll be around, but the core game will be more traditional.

That was one of the major things that affected 4E's staying power for me; the other was the feel of "sameness" across classes and levels despite unique mechanics.

I still like 4E as a low-level D&D game, and I love the range of tactical options it provides. But I've come to the realization that for long-term play I prefer flavor that reflects more classic D&D at its core, as well as less tightly integrated mechanics and a bit more "quirkiness".

I think it's a mistake to refer to 4E in the past tense, though. Like all versions of D&D, it will always be with us.

 

[Derren]

I think we're seeing an interesting move from 'everything is core' to 'everything is optional' - also known as 'put it in a module'. I think really they'd be even better off if the 'core' system was just rules, and the first published races and classes are equally optional as everything that comes afterwards.

The problem was that this "everything" 4E had still was less than what the core of other editions offered. 4E decided to throw away a lot of appeal in favor for tactical combat.

 

[billd91]

Dragonborn in the PHB was definitely a step too far IMO. It results in Dragonborn cropping up randomly in adventures where there's not really a thematic place for them.

I don't think that they were really a step to far (especially not if the feel had been "everything is optional" rather than "everything is core" - but since we always treated D&D as the former, we pretty much ignored the latter) as much as it was kind of vexing to have this new doodad taking up space rather than including the traditional core. Had more (or all) of the traditional core been there and dragonborn added, I think they would have been less controversial.