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D&D 4E Taking the 4e Plunge; Helpful hints?

Doc_Klueless

Doors and Corners
Supporter
A little background GM/DM on me: I've been playing D&D since around 1980-81. Lots and lots of time running AD&D 1e, 2e, BECMI. Mucho experience with GURPS, Palladium FRPG, WEGSW, Paranoia, Traveller. Been spending the last... oh... 1.5 -2 years running Savage Worlds and Castles & Crusades. Run lots of little "one-shot" games.

I've been running a successful Savage Worlds Fantasy game with my daughter (she's 15), but she came home today and announced that her friends play D&D4e and that is what she would like to run from now on so she can learn it, talk to her friends about it, etc.

I'm thinking Power Cards, Alea Tool markers, battle maps and miniatures (all of which I have) for the physical components.

What advice/tips would you give a dude with my GMing background who's *played* 4e exactly 2 times (and those were not successful due to a tool of a DM)?

Thanks for any help!

[Gonna post this over on rpg.net also, so there's no need to respond on both forums]
 

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sabrinathecat

Explorer
Congratulations: Welcome to 4th Edition. One of the best parts now is that WotC has announced they are not publishing any more books for 4E, so you can get a complete set. Furthermore, a lot of people are selling their books for cheap on eBay in anticipation of 5E or Next or whatever WotC is going to call it.

about 90% of DMing is the same.
Do not expect the PC's to be the same as previous editions. They are stronger. So are the monsters.
Relax: you will make mistakes. That is part of learning the new rules system.
If you have questions, ask. Usually someone here has an answer.
The WotC boards can also answer questions, but there are a lot more bitter & obnoxious trolls and munchkins than here.

If you have time:
build 1 or 2 characters, just to see how they work.
Run a trial combat or two, just to see how it works.
 

Doc_Klueless

Doors and Corners
Supporter
Congratulations: Welcome to 4th Edition. One of the best parts now is that WotC has announced they are not publishing any more books for 4E, so you can get a complete set. Furthermore, a lot of people are selling their books for cheap on eBay in anticipation of 5E or Next or whatever WotC is going to call it.

about 90% of DMing is the same.
Do not expect the PC's to be the same as previous editions. They are stronger. So are the monsters.
Relax: you will make mistakes. That is part of learning the new rules system.
If you have questions, ask. Usually someone here has an answer.
The WotC boards can also answer questions, but there are a lot more bitter & obnoxious trolls and munchkins than here.

If you have time:
build 1 or 2 characters, just to see how they work.
Run a trial combat or two, just to see how it works.

Yah, I told her that there will be a 5th Edition next year, but like most teenagers, my words were like water off a ducks back. lol.r
 


sabrinathecat

Explorer
Oh, one reason to visit the WotC boards is for information on all the erratta. Volumes of errors, glitches, and general bugs are documented here for correction. Some are simple typos. Others are major mechanical corrections.
Some of the books are better than others. Heroes of Shadow, for example, has great descriptions, but the actual mechanics are lacking. This was followed by pretty shoddy lack-of-followup support for the races and classes introduced. The basic PH1, however, works very well, mostly as-is. Martial Power 1&2 are good, as are Arcane Power and Divine Power. Other books, well, they are there. Some are good. Some aren't. Seems to be more a matter of what you prefer.
 

Advice:

Don't buy or use the Monster Manual 1. Get the Monster Vault instead. It has many of the same monsters, updated with new Monster Math, and tokens, if you like them. The newer monsters are deadlier but generally not as tough, so they're not as grindy for PCs to defeat. The solos are also far better designed.

I could say the same thing about the Monster Manual II, in fact. It's not that great either.

On a similar math note, skill DCs have been updated. The first time I used the old ones in combat (PCs were 4th-level), they were being grappled. Noone could escape, as the old DCs were just too high. Made for a lame battle, although the rest of the battle was so cool the players still talk about it. These are in the errata files, the DMG2, and a bunch of newer books I can't remember off the top of my head.

Make sure players know how to fill in a character sheet by hand. Personally, I hate the Character Builder, but almost everyone else seems to love it. Putting that aside, it's pretty bad if a player doesn't know where the numbers on their sheet are coming from. I had to teach a player about this (since his character was a pregen built by the DM) and this player later became a DM... it's a good thing he knows this now. If players are using the CB (and they probably will), familiarize yourself with it too. There's all kinds of little issues with it, such as having four attack bonuses and damage values for each power, including illegal combos, that I've seen. (Familiarizing with the CB is an area where I need to take my own advice.)

1st-level heroes are much tougher in 4e than in any previous edition. They can withstand multiple encounters per day, and should be made to do so.

Don't use too many sources. What sources you use is up to you, but I'd start with the PH1 and Heroes of the Fallen Lands/Forgotten Kingdoms. You don't need to open up Heroes of Shadow (as an example) with its vampire class (yes, you read that right, class) and pointless assassin, or Heroes of the Feywild with its arguably overpowered pixie race, or the PH2 avenger class which ends up with a brokenly high AC score when it's using a PH3 feat designed for monks but open to everyone, etc.

Familiarize yourself with the math fix feats, which are usually called X expertise. The ones you really need are in the PH2 and the first Essentials book. I personally find the AC-boosting expertise feats to be a bad idea at heroic levels, as despite the consensus of the message boards I don't find PC AC to be lacking at all. (Their defenses, on the other hand...)

You might want to use themes and backgrounds. These are optional, so don't feel pressured to do so. Themes are cool, IMO, because they give an extra encounter power at 1st-level. (Otherwise, you have players who feel their character can only be cool once per encounter...)

Use the errata. PH1 doesn't have that much crazy unbalanced stuff in it, but thinks like Blade Cascade and Destructive Salutation (stun on a miss) needed fixing, and got it. Also, conjurations got an errata which they desperately needed, but there's not a lot of summoning in the core books.

Keep monster level near that of the PCs, at least at heroic levels. (I ran an 11th-level session for the first time yesterday, and found a solo monster three levels over the PCs isn't grindy at all.) If you think a clutch of 1st-level monsters and a 5th-level boss is a good idea, I would suggest turning that 5th-level monster into a 1st-level solo instead. Worth the same XP, but PCs won't keep missing it.

Do you like rituals? Some players love them, others hate them. Personally I love them, but I'm not a fan of spending gold pieces that could have gone toward buying new items instead. If you want PCs to use rituals, go easy on them. Consider reducing or even eliminating the gp costs (not healing surges, time, or other such costs) and don't be afraid to have NPCs use them too. They're a pretty cool way to put a stop to the 15 minute day problem, which is admittedly less of a problem in 4e than in 3rd. (If PCs decide to retreat, rest and fight on the next day, the NPCs can use rituals to help themselves. Picture the PCs walking a trap-filled hallway, now filled with Hallucinatory Items that NPCs can hide in. Or worse, if half the monsters in an area are just illusions. Just picture someone failing an Insight check and wasting a daily power on a figment.)

There's tons of advice sites out there. My favorites are probably Sly Flourish and Angry DM, which will also link you to numerous other sites. (Both have great advice for boss fights. One time I used both sets of advice, resulting in a really fun battle.)

Making monsters is so much easier in 4e than in any previous edition. I've committed to making 5th, 10th and 15th level versions of every PC class in the PH1, and I think I've done it too. (In many cases, I do multiple builds. So I have a 15th-level star, fey and infernal warlock.) Handy for when you need some NPCs right now. 4e doesn't have Paizo's excellent NPC Codex or equivalent, unfortunately, although to be fair, making an NPC in 4e is a lot less work.

Bonus note: Maybe it's just my players, but they're obsessed with having high AC scores. Most monster attacks are against AC. When making a monster, feel free to make some of their regular attacks against another defense instead (with a -2 penalty). For instance, a soldier NPC who uses a spear could have the attack changed to "armor-piercing spear" and have it attack Reflex instead, or a warhammer attack could become a "crushing warhammer" attack that targets Fortitude. Feel free to apply these modifiers to monsters you haven't designed. I do it! :)

I'm lukewarm toward some of the newer races (I don't really like dragonborn, for instance), but everyone will have different opinions. If you're going to limit races, let players know right away.

Take a steady hand in putting together a party. Not all the roles absolutely have to be filled (but if you notice no one is a leader, take a look at the healing powers; they're only minor actions so the cleric can still spend time on kicking posterior... clerics cannot be healbots unless they're pacifists, and that's something from Divine Power that a new player probably won't even see). Also, not 4e relevant at all, but a mistake I've seen better DMs than myself make, repeatedly, is to make sure the PCs all know and trust each other before the game starts.

There's advice on terrain and hazards all over the place. Use to spice up combat. I've found my PCs absolutely hate it when archers shoot them from rooftops. And by hate it, I mean the PCs start dropping! (Prone, and then often unconscious!)
 
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sabrinathecat

Explorer
My devoted cleric was very effective at both combat and healing.
Roles: irrelevant. I run a game with a party of all strikers. No defenders, no leaders, no controllers. And they kill absolutely every creature I send at them. Sometimes ones even 3-4 levels higher than they.

Expertise feats: either make them free, or eliminate them. I favor the eliminate myself. To me, it's just a feat tax for the token +1/+2/+4 tier bonus. Never really had a problem hitting a monster. If I roll low, I miss. If I roll high, I hit.

See, we're only in the introduction notes, and we're giving you conflicting advice. On the main WotC boards, there would be more name-calling, and massive math crunch arguments.

Take a look at a few of the play-by-post threads if you need some ideas.
http://community.wizards.com/play-by-post_haven/go/forum/view/75801/136661/Play_By_Post_Games
The ravenloft one will give you an idea of combat right from the start, though it is with lvl4 characters, not lvl1.
 

1 - Get the DMG2 and use its advice almost exclusively over DMG1.

2 - Get Cortex Plus's Marvel Heroic Roleplaying Game. Read it through and apply its advice and techniques to your game.

3 - Use MM3 and Monster Vault monster math updates.

4 - Read through the various Skill Challenge and Scene-Framing threads on this board.

5 - Don't use gratuitous, resource ablation combats as "random encounters".

6 - Don't use Soldiers that are of greater level than your players.

7 - Make your combats as dynamic as possible from a mobility, terrain/hazard interaction perspective as possible. People should be upending tables and knocking folks prone, sliding/pushing them into firepits, throwing them through windows, loosing large AoE chandeliers/stalactites on enemies, etc.

8 - Get to know the p42 numbers and the "power formula/level" (base damage and modifiers for effects; - 10 % of damage budget for minor control effect, - 18 % for medium or two minors, - 25 % for major or two mediums, - 25 % for AoE). You should be using this regularly.

9 - Leverage 4e's rich thematic resources in Backgrounds, Themes and unique powers that leverage the metagame and provide characters access to author and director stance. Make sure everyone clearly understands the implications of such things and are on board.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
A little background GM/DM on me: I've been playing D&D since around 1980-81. Lots and lots of time running AD&D 1e, 2e, BECMI. Mucho experience with GURPS, Palladium FRPG, WEGSW, Paranoia, Traveller. Been spending the last... oh... 1.5 -2 years running Savage Worlds and Castles & Crusades. Run lots of little "one-shot" games.

I've been running a successful Savage Worlds Fantasy game with my daughter (she's 15), but she came home today and announced that her friends play D&D4e and that is what she would like to run from now on so she can learn it, talk to her friends about it, etc.

I'm thinking Power Cards, Alea Tool markers, battle maps and miniatures (all of which I have) for the physical components.

What advice/tips would you give a dude with my GMing background who's *played* 4e exactly 2 times (and those were not successful due to a tool of a DM)?

Thanks for any help!

I have a similar experience to yours as far as games go (just replace WEGSW with Shadowrun ;) ), but when I got back into gaming 3+ years ago it was mainly with D&D 4e. After running 4e at heroic and now paragon tier and having played in two other campaigns (one heroic, one paragon), I think I've got a good handle on 4e's strengths:

  • You have a solid baseline when designing fights, so that you should always know roughly whether a fight you've planned is easy, average, hard, or TPK territory. Just recognize the DMG guidelines for XP budgets as guidelines and do what you like from there.
  • Monsters are interesting and evocative in a fight, even (especially) lowly kobolds! Unfortunately, pre-Monster Vault monsters are mixed bag. Fortunately, it's easy to create or even ad-lib your own. As you get a feel for combat length, you may wish to lower standard monster HP depending on your group's damage output. Likewise, depending on your group, you may want to power up your solo monsters, particularly with greater condition-resistance.
  • It's a very rugged system that you can bend pretty far without breaking. Look at DMG page 42 about improvising player actions - to me that should be used just as often as PC powers (though, sadly, rarely is in my game). I recommend checking out my 4e DM Cheat Sheet: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?307923-4e-DM-Cheat-Sheet And while you're at it you might want to check out Sly Flourish's cheat sheet as another option: http://slyflourish.com/master_dm_sheet.pdf
  • When you get to the "Skill Challenges" section, just imagine a big fat strikethru thru "Skill" and replace it with "Creative" so you have "Creative Challenges". I've used "Creative Challenges" for mystery adventures, exploration, escaping a collapsing mine, disabling ritual foci, preparing for a siege, etc. DMG2 has a very good treatment of them. Any other books, blogs, or posts you read on the subject keep "Creative" as your guiding principle, don't get hung up on the details, and you'll do well. :)
  • PCs feel like heroes from level 1 and can take a beating. Not everyone likes this, but I like the low-mortality, high-threat games that 4e encourages.

There are several drawbacks to 4e, however, and ways to work around them:
  • Combats tend to drag for larger groups, inexperienced groups, or certain 'trap' encounters. IMO the #1 contributor is excess player options. Still, there are some thing you can do as DM to speed combats up. First, consider implementing some kind of initiative/defense cards which can be hung over the DM screen. Here's an example: [SBLOCK]
    IMG_0700.jpg
    [/SBLOCK] Second, avoid higher-level monsters (esp. soldiers) because defenses scale faster than offense, and update older monsters to the MM3 guidelines (reduce defenses of elites/solos by 2, double static damage modifiers, maybe reduce HP 25%, and maybe replace resistance with something more like the volcanic dragon’s aura in MM3). Third, use the advice from the 4e DMG Encounter Building section; it actually has lots of great advice I've seen new DMs ignore, such as not overwhelming yourself with too many monster types in a single encounter.
  • There is no 'grid-free' combat out of the box. Actually, there's been a lot of work in the community on zone-based combats in 4e and they work pretty naturally. Draw out a bubble-diagram with several combat zones, giving each different properties and ways to move between them (possibly requiring skill checks), and let the players go to town. Ad lib ranges, perhaps using the generalized range categories from http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/12/fluid-4e-gridless-combat/
  • There is no such thing as an "entry level" class in 4e. The closest thing out there would be in the Essentials books: Slayer Fighter (Heroes of the Fallen Lands) or Scout Ranger (Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms). Don't know how experienced your daughter and rest of the players are, but I'd think the Essentials would be good for a younger crowd. Also, having color-coded organized power cards can help, but the DDi Character Builder routinely doesn't add everything into the math there should be. Besides custom-designing each character sheet or having players who are really on top of it, I've got no good answer for ya.
  • Magic items mostly suck compared to older editions. If you want the over the top items of D&D lore you'll need to do a bit of digging (Mordenkainen's Magical Emporium is your friend here), find a well-designed artifact, or else make them up yourself.
  • There aren't as many good published adventures for 4e as there are for older editions. There are some good ones from ENWorld, Kobold Presss, and a handful by WotC, but they're few and far between.
 
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