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D&D 5E Current take on GWM/SS

Your preferred solution(s)?

  • Rewrite the feat: replace the -5/+10 part with +1 Str/Dex

    Votes: 22 13.6%
  • Rewrite the feat: change -5/+10 into -5/+5

    Votes: 8 4.9%
  • Rewrite the feat: change -5/+10 into -5/+8

    Votes: 2 1.2%
  • Rewrite the feat: you can do -5/+10, but once per turn only

    Votes: 33 20.4%
  • The problem isn't that bad; use the feats as-is

    Votes: 78 48.1%
  • Ban the two GWM/SS feats, but allow other feats

    Votes: 6 3.7%
  • Play without feats (they're optional after all)

    Votes: 11 6.8%
  • Other (please specify)

    Votes: 24 14.8%

  • Poll closed .

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Your group clearly doesnt put as much emphasis on the combat pillar of play.

The only groups I've really encountered like yours are those on the forums, where you run into hard core roleplayers who want to really escape reality and dive into a new world.

Not everyone plays D&D like that, and combat is a mini game within all that. Many players (like the Sorc guy in my group) only play the game for that pillar, and if that pillar is not living up to their expectations because of design flaws in the game, without house ruling there's no other way out of it.

There's quite a bit of combat in my games and we use the grid. I love combat and so do my players, usually. You can read one of my game transcripts if you like. Or any of the short-form scenarios I've posted.

Your frame of reference is so heavily invested in this idea of "rulings" and "story" and all three pillars of the game, you have a disconnect when it comes to the fact that some people just like combat, big damage numbers, and a more of a board game (or CRPG) experiance with a little more choice and immersion.

I'm invested in the goals of play and using the rules as tools to help the group achieve the goals of play. Like it says in the PHB and DMG. You can certainly play D&D 5e like a boardgame, but I don't think the game was really designed with that in mind. Hence the problems you're seeing. You might have a better time with D&D 4e (a game that I love the hell out of) or D&D 3e.

For those groups having feats that throw the balance way off (and a 40%-200% increase in damage based on various factors is a huge difference) these feats are going to be a problem. Also for DMs who don't have the time, skill, or ability to modify encounters to tackle these feats.

One "mantra" of D&D 5e is bounded accuracy. These feats combined with bless break that matra. That is a design flaw.

I don't think it's a design flaw when some very specific feats and tactics are chosen by players to "break" bounded accuracy.
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Iserith you use spotlight balance which works for some tables, hence you have no problem. But for those of us that want a rough damage balance, you have to remove the -5/+10. It's a playstyle difference and you guys will never agree.

You are seeking shared spotlight as well, except only with regard to scenes involving combat. The game is designed based on three pillars. So it's no wonder you're having issues. Change the feats, of course, if that's what you have to do. I'm only stating why people are having the problems they're having.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
When I say true striker on the forums, I mean crazy damage dealer. Of course there must be a damage cap in practice, and the +10 feats break it.

There's nothing wrong with crazy damage if there are multiple ways to get it. You want your damage dealers to deal crazy damage.

As long as the game still works. A SS archer deals 50-200% damage. A nonSS archer has 50-200% defenses or 50-200% exploration/social bonuses.

I don't care if the archer ranger outdamages the cleric, the tank paladin, the illusionist, and rogue by 100%. That's why I let him come. As long as 5-7 encounters of challenges is challenging.
 

DaveDash

Explorer
Maybe I'm being pedantic, but increasing damage doesn't sound like improving accuracy too much, -5 to hit sure doesn't. I mean, you take one of these feats, but monsters of lower level can still hit you, you can still hit monsters of higher level. Bounded Accuracy seems intact. Indeed, a -5 feat seems designed with the idea that Bounded Accuracy will let you keep hitting in spite of it, since ACs don't advance rapidly in lock-step with levels.

OK, that's different. But +1d4 certainly seems innocuous. You can roll a '1,' and miss an easy target, you can roll a 4 and hit a difficult one. Seems to leave things wide open.

Archery Style gives you an inherent +2 bonus over the standard, Sharpshooter allows you to ignore cover, bless adds +2.5 average to your roll, so you're now actually looking at -0.5 +10 on all your attacks. Despite the fact you may miss a little bit, your damage output is still way way way higher than normal. It gets worse the more attacks you get, so with crossbow expert you end up getting a huge boost to damage.

Bless is not innocuous. It adds +2.5 to your attack rolls on average, which is almost the equivalent of the most powerful magical weapons in the game (AND it adds this to your saving throws as well).
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Maybe I'm being pedantic, but increasing damage doesn't sound like improving accuracy too much, -5 to hit sure doesn't. I mean, you take one of these feats, but monsters of lower level can still hit you, you can still hit monsters of higher level. Bounded Accuracy seems intact. Indeed, a -5 feat seems designed with the idea that Bounded Accuracy will let you keep hitting in spite of it, since ACs don't advance rapidly in lock-step with levels.

OK, that's different. But +1d4 certainly seems innocuous. You can roll a '1,' and miss an easy target, you can roll a 4 and hit a difficult one. Seems to leave things wide open.

Simple example.

Wizard casts Hold Person.

AC 18 foe fails save.

11th level great weapon Fighter would normally hit a held AC 18 foe for 3 criticals for about 65 points of damage. DPR is about 54 points of damage. There is a slim chance that the Fighter misses, but with advantage, it's fairly uncommon at +9 to miss, even without a magic weapon (most PCs have at least a +1 weapon by level 11, but we'll ignore that).

With GWM, the same 11th level great weapon Fighter would normally hit a held AC 18 foe for at least 3 criticals for about 95 points of damage and could possible critical him 4 times. There is a greater chance that the Fighter misses each time, but overall his DPR goes up to 73.

A 35% increase in damage without magic items, without Bless, without other buffs. Just GWM. Once other synergies come into play, it increases a lot faster.

Just adding Bless to the equation means:

60 DPR vs. 92 DPR

The normal case increased by 6 DPR, the GWM case increased by 19 DPR (53% more damage now).


Against a lower AC foe, the DPR delta is considerably greater. Same with a magic weapon.

The point is that it is not that difficult to give a melee PC buffs, advantage, and other benefits.


Paladins get one fewer attack per round, but they can load up on a lot of damage with Smite and such. Granted, that is using non-renewable resources, but in a tough fight against a powerful high AC foe, the Paladin or Fighter is doing 50% more damage than the Rogue (who is also doing a critical with sneak attack damage against a held foe for about 52 DPR). Bless makes the Rogues DPR go from 52 to 53.

So we have:

Fighter without GWM: DPR 54
Blessed Fighter without GWM: DPR 60
Fighter with GWM: DPR 73
Blessed Fighter with GWM: DPR 90
Rogue: DPR 52
Blessed Rogue: DPR 53

Granted, foes are not going to be held a lot for the auto-criticals, but there are quite a few ways to get advantage (prone, faerie fire, blinded, etc.).
 

DaveDash

Explorer
Simple example.

Wizard casts Hold Person.

AC 18 foe fails save.

11th level great weapon Fighter would normally hit a held AC 18 foe for 3 criticals for about 65 points of damage. DPR is about 54 points of damage. There is a slim chance that the Fighter misses, but with advantage, it's fairly uncommon at +9 to miss, even without a magic weapon (most PCs have at least a +1 weapon by level 11, but we'll ignore that).

With GWM, the same 11th level great weapon Fighter would normally hit a held AC 18 foe for at least 3 criticals for about 95 points of damage and could possible critical him 4 times. There is a greater chance that the Fighter misses each time, but overall his DPR goes up to 73.

A 35% increase in damage without magic items, without Bless, without other buffs. Just GWM. Once other synergies come into play, it increases a lot faster.

Just adding Bless to the equation means:

60 DPR vs. 92 DPR

The normal case increased by 6 DPR, the GWM case increased by 19 DPR (53% more damage now).


Against a lower AC foe, the DPR delta is considerably greater. Same with a magic weapon.

The point is that it is not that difficult to give a melee PC buffs, advantage, and other benefits.


Paladins get one fewer attack per round, but they can load up on a lot of damage with Smite and such. Granted, that is using non-renewable resources, but in a tough fight against a powerful high AC foe, the Paladin or Fighter is doing 50% more damage than the Rogue (who is also doing a critical with sneak attack damage against a held foe for about 52 DPR). Bless makes the Rogues DPR go from 52 to 53.

So we have:

Fighter without GWM: DPR 54
Blessed Fighter without GWM: DPR 60
Fighter with GWM: DPR 73
Blessed Fighter with GWM: DPR 90
Rogue: DPR 52
Blessed Rogue: DPR 53

Granted, foes are not going to be held a lot for the auto-criticals, but there are quite a few ways to get advantage (prone, faerie fire, blinded, etc.).

This depends. All four members of my group can cast hold person, three of them with a DC of 18.

There were entire portions of the underdark they cast HP and ended every fight before it started. And yeah as a result we had some absurd counterspell battles too.

Any NPC up to 180hp is basically toast unless it has legendary resistance, because with GWM + Hold Person the Paladin can come close to killing it in one round.
 
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