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Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
A question: so why does a GM need rules to tell him/her how much to charge for swords and shields?

He doesn't. The inclusion of those charts, though, does not in any way invalidate or counter what I am saying. You can decide in a rule set that you are making lighter, to include some things and not others, even if they are similar.

Another question: why does a GM need rules to tell him/her what affect on combat resolution results from using a sword and/or a shield? (5e has many, many such rules.)

You seem to be assuming that the damage rules are of the same weight and ease for the DM to come up with as prices. That's a False Equivalence. Damage from weapons affects game balance and game play to a much greater degree, making it very complex. Pricing on the other hand is incredibly simple and doesn't affect balance nearly as much.
 

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Even if there were more options, a lot of people would still gravitate to a handful of optimal options. It would be the same complaint or the complaint would be that there are so many options that build X is broken. Personally I'd be happy running my dwarven rogue or gnome barbarian because I don't care all that much about eaking out numerical supremacy, it's just not that important.

If they had more options, it would just lead to a game of grognard character building that they were trying to avoid. I also think it wouldn't really solve anything because there will always be a handful of builds that on a spreadsheet look best.
I think this shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what motivates mechanical players. We're not looking for options to make good builds better, we're looking for options to make bad builds good, and thus increase the number of playable options.

Simple proof. There isn't a much more mechanically complex system than Pathfinder. In PF, it's almost universally recognized that full casters like Wizard, Cleric, and Druid are a cut above every other class. (They're the "Tier 1" classes). And yet, if you go to a site like Zenith Games, which indexes almost every Char Op guide that exists in Pathfinder, you'll see just as much attention, if not more, spent on weaker classes like Fighter or Monk or Kineticist as you do on Clerics and Wizards.

Why? Because optimizing powerful classes like Wizards is boring. Coming up with an off-the-wall concept like "grappler that sets people on fire" and figuring out how to make it work is like 90% of the fun of character building.

I know we're supposed to play at the table, not away from the table, narrative first as a design goal, etc, but I still regret that marrying 5e's simple chassis with PF's flexibility wasn't a design goal, market forces be damned.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If I get the argument that you and @doctorbadwolf are running correct, it's that attack checks are the same as ability/skeill checks except that instead of generating consequences for the shared fiction they trigger further mechanical processes.

Typically generate further mechanical consequences. Sometimes they don't, but those are usually exceptions created by other more specific rules. Sometimes, however, you are just making an attack roll and dealing no damage at all. I can't tell you how many time I've had PCs in archery/spear throwing/etc. contests where you make an attack and the AC(DC) just determines how well you did and you never roll damage against the object being attacked.

Everything there seems to be located in the exception rather than the sameness. Obviously, rolling a d20 and adding some numbers is the same process whatever the context, but rolling a d20 and adding some numbers isn't how you resolve a fight in any version of D&D (contrast, say, HeroWars/Quest where it is; or BW, where it can be (if the extended resolution option is not being used) subject to the caveat that rather than a d20 it is a pool of d6s).

We aren't talking about fight resolution, though. We are talking about the mechanics of an attack check vs. the mechanics of a skill check. Making a skill check often doesn't resolve the situation the PCs are in, either.
 

Fallstorm

First Post
And in so doing they a) overlaid those things on to a system that really wasn't set up to handle them and b) opened up a Pandora's Box of broken combinations and-or spell interactions through lack of foresight and-or full-stress playtesting.

In short, they broke their own system.

Well, in 2E due to the various conditions at TSR when the person who did not really like D&D took over there was actually very little playtesting in general. You also correct that the Players Option series was not play-tested in fact the Combat & Tactics and Skills & Powers books were evidently worked in by two different teams with not much cross collaboration. All that being said because their was a mistake in implementation on a past product does not mean a future direction should not be taken but the mistakes of the past learned from. D&D 5E seems to be well playtested internally with external playtesting involved as well. Also, while I don't work at WOTC and while I may not like all their decisions it seems from the D&D Brand standpoint the designers/writers are in fact very collaborative and keeping each other in the loop on directions of various projects, which makes sense given the small number of actual designers and writers left at WOTC. Additionally D&D 5E is much more streamlined than 2E was so laying additional layers on top of the system should not be that hard. As it stands now I see why a modular expansion adding more tactical options for those who want such things is not feasible and able to be implemented without breaking the system.

Maybe they realize they've got something right now that's more or less working pretty well and don't want to risk breaking it?.

See my above point. Furthermore the system was built on the premise of modular expansions that would allow the group to "dial the game" to their taste from more theater of the mind to tactical/power gaming options. From a power-gaming perspective I feel I need to add I don't feel gimped in this department. Between the PHB, the SCAG, Xanathar's, Mordenkainen's guide, Volo's guide to Everything (to a much lesser extent) there are a number of class, subclass, and race combinations to choose from. I would say that in a modular expansion feat selection should be revised. As it stands right now there are a ton of good feats that will never get selected due to having to make the choice of a stat bump or a feat choice and in every group I have been in the Stat bump is almost always a better choice MOST of the time. Yet people want feats which is why humans are on of the most played races right now, something that was unheard of in other editions of D&D. We definitely don't need feat glut like in 3E and 4E and I can understand feats being optional to appease the OSR crowd (1E and 2E fans) but I feel like this could have been done better. It could have been as simple as noting 1) feats are optional (as they are) and 2) stating at every level you get a stat bump you can also get a feat. This way more feats would see play but as it is a lot of feats will just languish. Having said all that overall I feel characters are thankfully stronger in 5E than in every other edition except 4E and honestly they are not THAT for behind they just don't have the choices and customization 3E and 4E PCs had.

Where I think D&D could expand is by adding in more tactical options in combat and ways to tweak the game more to prior editions, also adding a little more charop choices would be a nicety. People are not being ridiculous in expecting this as this was the premise this edition was soled on. I don't see that many people on here saying they hate 5E (some are but not many). While 5E is not my favorite I like it well enough and I play it regularly and enjoy myself. I like some other people are just waiting on the dials and modular expansions they said WOTC would do pre-release. Well, its four years now and I am still waiting. We have gotten modules but not the modular expansions promoted.


Cool - you're one of the lucky ones who has players that can and will do both.

Which leads to a question: would those players be able to bring the same characterization and character personality to the table if using a system that doesn't have fine-tuned mechanical representation for differences between characters of the same class e.g. 1e D&D?t

The anti-power gamer attitude that some segments of the community hold I fail to understand. Many of these players dislike power-gaming or have a favorability of story telling etc. creating a dichotomy that should not exist. Yet, I have found that story tellers and "deep" role-players can be just as disruptive as a power gamer. In fact, in most of the groups I have been in especially random meetup or FLGS event groups it has never been a powergamer that was the most disruptive player it was usually a "deep" role-player that was more weird or outright disruptive. Straight up. Furthermore, if D&D 5E is all about history and drawing the history and what makes the game iconic (which again is something THEY i.e. the designers have talked about and promoted about 5E) then D&D has always been about mechanics and combat. D&D was grew out of tabletop WARGAMING which has about ZERO role-playing. In fact, I recall an article in Dragon magazine under 3e (I want to say Dragon 238 or 239) where they interviewed Gary Gygax and he went on the whole "ROLE-play not ROLL play crowd" and stated that D&D is open to everyone and every type of gamer but that D&D was founded as an sword and sorcery adventure wargame not "an exercise in amateur thespianism". I remember the last part stood out to me. Now, the market can grow and like I said my group of powergamers loves a good narrative and well built world. We develop and write background stories for our characters BUT none of that is any more important for some reason than how well we mechanically build our characters. Hack-and-slash, powergaming, whatever you want to call it is just as valid a playstyle as any other (it is in fact more rooted in the history and precedent of D&D) and I don't think D&Ders are wrong for expecting that as part of the game.....especially again since a variety of rules that would allow you to dial the game to your taste was a part D&D 5E's brand advertisement and promotion.

Now, I do kind of understand that if you have people who are great at CharOp and someone who is not good at Charop joins a group that the less skilled Charop person can feel overwhelmed. I have seen this happen. Likewise if a strong Charop person joins a group where everyone is not good at CharOp that character can overwhelming shine (in combat) and make other PCS feel useless. I have seen this happen although in all honesty not as often. The way to correct this is 1) people who are stronger at CharOp will hopefully help and teach someone not as skilled. In my 20+ years of D&D I have mostly played with very tactically minded and CharOp minded players. When I first started I was not as experienced as my peers at this but being around them made me want to be better. It made me strive to show what I can do and I like that. 2) It could be that the non-CharOp person is okay with suboptimal choices that could drain the party combat wise and if that is the case the group can a) except that pc and everyone have fun. I as a powergamer don't mind building a class that shines in combat and letting the deep role-player get his/her kicks from non-combat stuff. If he accepts me I can accept him and it is a great symbiosis. I would think people would be mature enough to play this way. b) the other option is for people to know what kind of group they are getting into and join a group that fits their playstyle. No harm, no foul.

What should not happen however is people who are good at CharOp and tactics combat being told they CAN'T do it(not even via an official OPTIONAL expansion) because a specific group will not do CharOp for whatever reason (inability or dislike of the style). This mindset seems very draconian to me (and not in a D&D way). It is like somebody being a vegetarian and saying "Hey! I don't eat meat because I don' t like it. Therefore we can only go to restaurants that serve zero meat so you can't eat meat either." The D&D table is big enough for various playstyles. I truly believe that. What D&D can't tolerate is toxic players and even more impactful toxic GMs (because yes GMS can be problematic too and in fact have more an impact on the game). The DM-May-I-ism of 5E btw makes "Power GMs" or toxic GMS more feasible.

To answer your question. 1E D&D was the granddaddy of all RPGS. I would have played that system because there was nothing else around for me to compare it too at the time and no one knew any better until later on. So, in 1E there would be no way for my Thief X to be different from Thief Y other than background and story but again that is because D&D was the first and RPGs were limited and not with the nuanced and varied taste in playstyle gamers have now (see P.S./Addendum). I started in 2E (though I have some 1E books) and in that system people wanted official ways to differentiate themselves which is why we had "The Complete" series where characters could take a kit and in a crude manner try to gain a difference mechanically in class features. Then Players Option came out in 2E where you could distinguish yourself. Then 3E and 4E came out which was all about customization. Now we are in 5E and supposedly some people are claiming people don't want customization yet anytime WOTC releases a book with actual rules expansions it flies off the shelf at every game store I have seen. Xanathar's was gone within a day at my FLGS. None of the fluffy adventures WOTC has released has ever sold out that fast. So somebody's wanting options.


Addendum: Due to a discourse I had with 2 individuals on here I feel I am forced via irksome arguments to clarify a statement that should be readily apparent. Of course at the time of AD&D 1E there were other RPGs around but if you have one product occupying the vast amount of shares in a niche market then for all intents and purposes that is not a market at all. For example, if only 4 % of the populace drank soda and Coca-Cola was the soft drink 98% of soda imbibers drank most marketers would be loathe to really say there is a soft drinks "market" despite the fact there were other soda makers fighting over 2% of the market share. This is why if you recall there was an article not too long ago about how the end of 3.5 kind of saved RPGS being in local bookstores and not only gaming stores. This was because prior to Pathfinder D&D was really the only RPG (again in a NICHE/specialty market) that was selling enough copies to warrant chain store occupancy. Thus bookstores chains were starting to question having a totally separate shelving space for RPGs when the only RPG that warranted enough sales to be in chain stores was D&D. Evidently when PF started becoming popular it sold enough and gained enough attention that book chains like B&N and Borders were able to say look we have 2 products that produce X amount of supplements therefore we can justify having a separate section for RPGs. My point is during the early phase of the 1E era D&D while other games were around D&D really had no real market challengers from TTRPG perspective therefore the mechanical options or lack thereof was not as big an issue. Please accept my apologies if this sounds condescending (it is NOT my intent) and probably already know this and what I meant but again I felt the need to justify given certain interactions of recent.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I did some quick counts over at DnDBeyond because I was curious. There are
37 races
12 classes
80 sub-classes
34 backgrounds
60 feats

So mathematically, there are thousands of options depending on how you calculate it. I know ... you'll tell me that 99.9% of those are not "valid" options because it wouldn't make sense to run a <insert race> <insert class> and that <insert feat, background, whatever> wouldn't make sense. It's not that there aren't more options than you could play, it seems that most options are eliminated out of the gate or that playing a combination that isn't "optimal" isn't valid.

Even if there were more options, a lot of people would still gravitate to a handful of optimal options. It would be the same complaint or the complaint would be that there are so many options that build X is broken. Personally I'd be happy running my dwarven rogue or gnome barbarian because I don't care all that much about eaking out numerical supremacy, it's just not that important.

If they had more options, it would just lead to a game of grognard character building that they were trying to avoid. I also think it wouldn't really solve anything because there will always be a handful of builds that on a spreadsheet look best.

As far as decisions being front-loaded, that is a good point. Not sure that it's really all that different though from previous editions. I always had a general idea of where my PC was going to go, and you had to have certain prerequisites to qualify for prestige classes so it was more of an illusion of choice than anything. In 5E you have the option of multi-classing which you can do at any time, much more flexible than early editions.

A few things.

First, those of us who want more options aren't necessarily asking for the number of options provided by 3e or 4e, which were excessive to say the least. There's a lot of reasonable middle ground. 3e put out a book of PC options every month or two. I'd like to see 1-2 a year in 5e. 5e has put out 1 book of PC options, and has included a small amount in with a few monster books. So about a book and a third or half in 4 years.

Second, not all options are discounted because of not being optimal. Many combinations just don't make sense. A rogue with great weapon master, heavily armored, or heavy armor master for instance. Some just don't work at all, like a rogue with elemental adept. I don't care if a combination I take isn't optimal, but I do care if it doesn't make sense.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think if you accept the premise that roleplaying is primarily about inhabitation of a character and an invocation of the character's sensory environment, than it follows that the generation of a narrative is a secondary concern.

<snip>

I think the biggest problem for protagonist driven play is that there's no existing analogue in other media
This is interesting, so I'm glad I invoked your name to get it!

How do you think I should fit what you say here with the description of 5e as "narrative first"? By "narrative" should I be thinking "flavour text"?
 

One choice, made at character creation, that boils down to two skills and two tools/languages.


One choice, made at character creation. Has a decent mechanical impact, but does little to differentiate the way a character plays.


Great for fleshing out a character's personality, but has next to no mechanical impact. Also made at character creation.


Again, character creation only choices that are good for roleplaying but have absolutely no mechanical impact.


What I'm looking for is more ways to build characters to make them mechanically different from one another. In particular, more character building choices to make beyond 1st level. Currently, you make all character building decisions at character creation, with the exception of a Subclass at 2nd or 3rd level (if you didn't decide that ahead of time), and a Feat or ASI once every four levels (a few extra for Fighters and Rogues). That is very, very little to make one character actually behave differently than another.



I guess I disagree about every character behaving the same mechanically - even those of the same subclass to some degree - but I now understand your desire for more crunch. I mean, how does a Divination wizard behave the same as a Champion Fighter? Roll dice for attack and damage at the most base level, I suppose - but that's a lack of imagination, not the fault of existing mechanics. I suppose that leads to the conclusion that mechanics are integrally tied to the roleplay - otherwise, yes, samey.

Post level one mechanical choices:

Many spells for spellcasters to choose from to add/swap/prepare each level
Barbarian totem spirits or storm soul aspects
Fighting Styles for Rangers, Paladins, and Sword Bards
Maneuvers for Battlemaster Fighters
Druid Wild Shapes (newly discovered shapes through exploration)
The Elemental Disciplines for the Way of the Four Elements Monk
The Attack and Defense options for Hunter Rangers
Metamagic for Sorcerers
Eldritch Invocations and Pact Boons for Warlocks

Purchasing/Finding new weapons
Magic Items (including: you may need decide which to attune AND/OR if playing in a world with Ye Olde Magic Shoppes, which to buy)
Renown with Factions
Downtime activities to focus on learning new languages, tools, and skills
Dragonmarks in Eberron

I get that you want more and that's certainly ok but what you see as scarcity I see as plenty. Clearly YMMV.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
This is interesting, so I'm glad I invoked your name to get it!

How do you think I should fit what you say here with the description of 5e as "narrative first"? By "narrative" should I be thinking "flavour text"?
I think it's probably more around "concept" than it is about "narrative". Not to trivialize other people's play agendas, but I think their focus is on demonstration of backstory, concept, and capabilities, not generation of plot.
 

pemerton

Legend
Can you provide an example of this? As I'm not following your train of thought here.
The 4e PHB comments (p 259) that in a skill challenge "You can use a wide variety of skills, from Acrobatics and Athletics to
Nature and Stealth. You might also use combat powers . . ." The DMG says (p 72) "The difference between a combat challenge and a skill challenge isn’t the presence or absence of physical risk, nor the presence or absence of attack rolls and damage rolls and power use", and goes on to say (p 74) that "[c]haracters might have access to utility powers or rituals that can help them. These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus. Rituals in particular might grant an automatic success or remove failures from the running total." The DMG2 is the most elaborate on this (p 86), suggesting that "[c]haracter can use powers and sometimes rituals in the midst of skill challenge . . . a good rule of thumb is to treat those . . . as if they were secondary skills in the challenge [ie that cancel a failure, grant a bonus to a different check, allow a reroll, or open up the use of a new skill, as per p 85] . . . A character who performs a relevant rituak or uses a daily power deserves to notch at lesat 1 success toward the party's goal."

At least as I read this, there are two things going on (and from here I'm focused only on powers, though I'm happy to talk about rituals too if you're interested). One is that 4e capabilities have a clear "cost structure" as resources - encounter powers are low-cost resources, and expending them generally generates a modest return (the seondary skill check outcomes mentioned); daily powers are higher-cost resources, and expending them therefore generally generates a higher return (the auto-success outcome mentioned).

The other thing turns on the facts that (a) a skill challenge is all about making a check that is grounded in the existing ficitonal positioning, and changes that whether it succeeds or fails (DMG p 74; DMG 2 p 83); and (b) the main connection between a power and the fiction is the power's keywords and effects.

So to use a power to generate an effect appropriate to its "cost" as a player resource, the player has to actually declare a move in the fiction that expresses the (keyword and effect) mediated fiction of the power. Two examples of what I have in mind: a sorcerer uses Spark Form to generate an arc of lightning between his staff and his dagger to help intimidate a bear - keyword lightning; and a wizard uses Charm of the Dark Dream - a possession daily - to try and read the mind of a guard and learn a password - keyword charm and effects dominate, attacking character is removed from play (ie in the fiction, the mage disappears and possesses the target).

The first RPG I know to use a system a bit like this is Maelstrom Storytelling (1997), which uses a uniform scene-resolution mechanic based on dice pools (either opposed or vs a difficulty), and allows players to "burn" descriptors (ie use them up for the session) to add bonus dice to the pool, or to generate "sub-scenes" that they can try and win even if the group loses the overall scene. Because 4e has a robust and uniform-across-players resource economy, it is easy to adapt the same sort of thing into skill challenges, which is - as I read it - what the DMG2 has in mind.

In a system in which players don't have these uniform suites of resources, and don't use keywords to provide clear but also flexible anchors to the fiction, this sort of thing (in my view) becomes much harder to adjudicate.
 

The more of Mearl's postings I read, the more I'm convinced that the success of 5E as a system is a happy accident rather than deliberate. Either that or it's really Jeremy Crawford who's sitting at the steering wheel.
 

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