Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 


log in or register to remove this ad

Fallstorm

First Post
/facepalm

¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Yeah dude I don't know what the face palm is but D&D was the original RPG. It did not have a lot of mechanical differences so you had to make stuff up to differentiate your character class from another player playing the exact same class. The differences were minimal buit you didn't know any better and that is all you had. People were happy about that back then because the market was more limited so in terms of RPG the market was not as expansive offering as many options of games as available now. Now that RPGs are well established and it is you know some DECADES removed form 1E's inception taste of grown and varied to specified taste. This not phenomenal this is normal in a new product/genre is released it is called the EPS Cycle (Elite-Popular-Specialized). Meaning when something comes out it is generally like and/or available to very few select individuals. Then over time that product becomes popular and like by a mass of individuals. When a product becomes liked by a mass of individuals the product will fragment because people have varied tastes so the product will be manufactured more to suit individual preferences.

So asking me how in the early days of a genre I would be satisfied with less is not a fair or honestly logical question. I would have been satisfied with it because I really had no other choice of options at the time. It is like asking someone who likes craft beer and does not want to drink just Budweiser "Well what did you do before craft beer really got big and came on the scene?" I mean, at that time I guess if I wanted a beer I would have to drink Bud or its equivalent because I would have no choice. People have choices now in both beer and RPGs. So with beer I can have a good stout as one of my choices. For RPGs D&D one those choices should be CharOp and tactical gaming.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Sadras

Legend
The 4e PHB comments (p 259) that in a skill challenge "You can use a wide variety of skills, from Acrobatics and Athletics to
Nature and Stealth. You might also use combat powers . . ." The DMG says (p 72) "The difference between a combat challenge and a skill challenge isn’t the presence or absence of physical risk, nor the presence or absence of attack rolls and damage rolls and power use", and goes on to say (p 74) that "[c]haracters might have access to utility powers or rituals that can help them. These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus. Rituals in particular might grant an automatic success or remove failures from the running total." The DMG2 is the most elaborate on this (p 86), suggesting that "[c]haracter can use powers and sometimes rituals in the midst of skill challenge . . . a good rule of thumb is to treat those . . . as if they were secondary skills in the challenge [ie that cancel a failure, grant a bonus to a different check, allow a reroll, or open up the use of a new skill, as per p 85] . . . A character who performs a relevant rituak or uses a daily power deserves to notch at lesat 1 success toward the party's goal."

At least as I read this, there are two things going on (and from here I'm focused only on powers, though I'm happy to talk about rituals too if you're interested). One is that 4e capabilities have a clear "cost structure" as resources - encounter powers are low-cost resources, and expending them generally generates a modest return (the seondary skill check outcomes mentioned); daily powers are higher-cost resources, and expending them therefore generally generates a higher return (the auto-success outcome mentioned).

The other thing turns on the facts that (a) a skill challenge is all about making a check that is grounded in the existing ficitonal positioning, and changes that whether it succeeds or fails (DMG p 74; DMG 2 p 83); and (b) the main connection between a power and the fiction is the power's keywords and effects.

So to use a power to generate an effect appropriate to its "cost" as a player resource, the player has to actually declare a move in the fiction that expresses the (keyword and effect) mediated fiction of the power. Two examples of what I have in mind: a sorcerer uses Spark Form to generate an arc of lightning between his staff and his dagger to help intimidate a bear - keyword lightning; and a wizard uses Charm of the Dark Dream - a possession daily - to try and read the mind of a guard and learn a password - keyword charm and effects dominate, attacking character is removed from play (ie in the fiction, the mage disappears and possesses the target).

The first RPG I know to use a system a bit like this is Maelstrom Storytelling (1997), which uses a uniform scene-resolution mechanic based on dice pools (either opposed or vs a difficulty), and allows players to "burn" descriptors (ie use them up for the session) to add bonus dice to the pool, or to generate "sub-scenes" that they can try and win even if the group loses the overall scene. Because 4e has a robust and uniform-across-players resource economy, it is easy to adapt the same sort of thing into skill challenges, which is - as I read it - what the DMG2 has in mind.

In a system in which players don't have these uniform suites of resources, and don't use keywords to provide clear but also flexible anchors to the fiction, this sort of thing (in my view) becomes much harder to adjudicate.

Despite the fact that I have not read the 4e DMG2, I was already thinking along these lines in my 5e game where the party will soon be travelling large distances (Chapter 3 in Storm King's Thunder) and I wanted to include a skill type challenge to represent the dangers and resource-tax effect of exploration as opposed to rolling for random encounters.

Where success in the skill challenge could be earned or advantage gained in the checks via the expenditure of short or long rest class features, Hit Dice and even Inspiration Points that can via the narrative match up to the challenge. This is further helped (in my game) only because I have hitched the recharging of resources to the exhaustion mechanic, so expending short or long rest class features is risky/costly.
So I'm very much utilising this 4e idea in our 5e game.

I think in 5e it is particularly important for the DM/table to decide on the workings of the rest mechanic as that more than any of the other factors (MCing, Feats, Magical Items, high ability scores) impacts the encounter building (combat or otherwise) as well as difficulty.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Sacrosanct

Legend
Yeah dude I don't know what the face palm is but D&D was the original RPG. It did not have a lot of mechanical differences so you had to make stuff up to differentiate your character class from another player playing the exact same class. People were happy about that back then because the market was more limited so in terms of RPG the market was not as expansive offering as many options of games as available now. Now that RPGs are well established and it is you know some DECADES removed form 1E's inception taste of grown and varied to specified taste. This not phenomenal this is normal in a new product/genre is released it is called the EPS Cycle (Elite-Popular-Specialized). Meaning when something comes out it is generally like and/or available to very few select individuals. Then over time that product becomes popular and like by a mass of individuals. When a product becomes liked by a mass of individuals the product will fragment because people have varied tastes so the product will be manufactured more to suit individual preferences.

So asking me how in the early days of a genre I would be satisfied with less is not a fair or honestly logical question. I would have been satisfied with it because I really had no other choice of options at the time. It is like asking someone who likes craft beer and does not want to drink just Budweiser "Well what did you do before craft beer really got big and came on the scene?" I mean, at that time I guess if I wanted a beer I would have to drink Bud or its equivalent because I would have no choice. People have choices now in both beer and RPGs. So with beer I can have a good stout as one of my choices. For RPGs D&D one those choices should be CharOp and tactical gaming.

Not to speak for lowkey13, but I'm guessing the facepalm is because you're grossly mistaken. I'm guessing you didn't play RPGs in the late 70s/early 80s? Not only are you mistaken about how you think classes all played the same, but you are also mistaken about what RPGs were out there at the time. Just off the top of my head, there were also RPGs like Traveller, Top Secret, Marvel SuperHeroes, Boot Hill, Tunnels&Trolls, Gama World, Runequest, Palladium, Villains&Vigilantes, etc. Most of those were as early as the late 70s. And they aren't obscure either, they all were pretty popular.
 


pemerton

Legend
Comparing levels between 1e and 5e, especially once you get close to name level and beyond, is foolish and obscures far more than it illuminates.
What do you think [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] had in mind, then, when he asked about dropping the AD&D turn undead system into 5e. Do you think he was envisaging changing the level numbers at the top of the AD&D chart?
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Please, feel free to lecture me about the early days of RPGs.

But, fwiw, you didn't say D&D. You started by saying 1e. 1e is not D&D (OD&D, supplements). While it is arguable as to whether or not D&D was the first TTRPG, assuming it was, by the time 1e was being fully played and had a complete ruleset (MM, PHB, DMG) in 1979, RPGs were already everywhere.

The main period of 1e (1979 - 1989) happened to coincide with a massive explosion of RPGs. If 1e was the only thing you could play, you weren't even trying.

So, pretty much everything you said was factually incorrect. I also happen to disagree with your opinions, but those are yours. Enjoy them.

Ironically enough, in the past decade or so, almost all of my TTRPG time with D&D (or my own systems). In the early 80s, I think I played D&D equally along with Palladium, Boot Hill, and Twilight 2000. Many of my friends were also playing Traveller, Top Secret, CoC, and Rolemaster just as much as D&D. So anecdotally at least, our RPG exposure was more diverse in the early 80s than it is now.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Wouldn't the GM be framing the scene in which the PC attempts to influence the noble? Which normally would include setting the DC? And working with the player to establish what follows from success and what follows from failure?

Possibly, yes, I mention that at the end of the bit you quote, and also in other parts of my post you chose not to quote. It would also depend on the system in question, and so on.

However, you brought up the example of the fine attire as something beneficial on which a PC can spend gold. My point is about how having a concrete benefit ahead of time that says "+2 on influence rolls" or "this roll is made with Advantage" or "the NPC's starting attitude will shift to Favorable" or something similar can actually serve as a limitation on play. When there are existing mechanics of this kind, players tend to say "Okay, we need to influence the noble...what can we do?" and they consult a list of actions the rules already addresses, and they limit their decision to those options.

Those mechanics codify what happens when the PC wears the attire. The GM does not need to determine what happens. Would you agree?

If not, and you feel the GM does have a strong role in the outcome, then I'm not sure if we're disagreeing. Perhaps it's just where the GM judgment comes into play? For you, it's okay for him to determine the DC and the results of a success or failure....but if I understand correctly, not in what's possible?

For me, I prefer if my players come up with what their characters do, and not decide what's available to them from a predetermined list, and then as DM, I can decide if a check is needed, and if so what kind and at what DC, and then the results the check.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
I assume survey data showed them how their restraints were.
I think arguing any further is futile. I with 100 percebt certainty know that condenskng something to its essentials and making the underlying math as sound as 5e is in most parts is a lot of work. I am also 100 percent sure that deciding which innovative parts to throw out is a lot of work. I also know for certainity that puttingnin innovations that are subtle enough not to offend 95% of the audience is not easy. And then it is a a lot of work to make the game accessible and not overloading beginning players and dms which even might include again throwing out stuff that is nice to have but not worth the extra bulk.

So. And last but not least: if that would be easy, why wasn't it done before?

Innovative design is not always bulky and unwieldy. Sometimes it is the reduction to essentials that makes a work innovative, especially when the trend before was making things bigger and more unwieldy.

I tell people 5e is elegant.

el·e·gant

adjective
pleasingly graceful and stylish in appearance or manner.
"she will look elegant in black"
synonyms: stylish, graceful, tasteful, sophisticated, classic, chic, smart, fashionable, modish;

(of a scientific theory or solution to a problem) pleasingly ingenious and simple.
"the grand unified theory is compact and elegant in mathematical terms"
synonyms: neat, simple, effective; ingenious, clever, deft, intelligent, inventive
"an elegant solution"
 

pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION], thanks for the reply about equipment etc. Most of what you say seems plausible enough. It doesn't change my mind about what seems to me a disconnect between the emphasis 5e gameplay appears to place on accumulating money, and the absence of a gameplay rationale for doing so. (You have given a good account of why a significant number of in-principle expenditure possibilities don't loom that large in standard FRPG or S&S-type play.) It also doesn't change my mind about the absence of a uniform resolution system in 5e. (You cogently address the fact that there is not one.) Nor does it make me feel that the "narrative" dimension to 5e non-combat is closer to "The rules run out in relation to stuff that is more peripheral, and at that point the GM's decision is more important than any mechanical element."

I'm not sure if you were trying to change my mind on any of those things - maybe not? probably not? to be honest it's a bit hard to keep track of all the sub-discussions, so I apologise if I've slightly mislocated your contribution - but they were some of the ideas I thought were in play for the last dozen or so pages of this thread.
 

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top