Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 


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5ekyu

Hero
@5ekyu, thanks for the reply about equipment etc. Most of what you say seems plausible enough. It doesn't change my mind about what seems to me a disconnect between the emphasis 5e gameplay appears to place on accumulating money, and the absence of a gameplay rationale for doing so. (You have given a good account of why a significant number of in-principle expenditure possibilities don't loom that large in standard FRPG or S&S-type play.) It also doesn't change my mind about the absence of a uniform resolution system in 5e. (You cogently address the fact that there is not one.) Nor does it make me feel that the "narrative" dimension to 5e non-combat is closer to "The rules run out in relation to stuff that is more peripheral, and at that point the GM's decision is more important than any mechanical element."

I'm not sure if you were trying to change my mind on any of those things - maybe not? probably not? to be honest it's a bit hard to keep track of all the sub-discussions, so I apologise if I've slightly mislocated your contribution - but they were some of the ideas I thought were in play for the last dozen or so pages of this thread.

i rarely try and change the minds of the posters i am directly responding to - only if they seem to be coming from an open minded or wanting to be informed PoV as opposed to a place of "my mind is made up."

I often challenge or offer counter-arguments for those others reading the sometimes overly strongly worded position statements to provide a clear example of a differing position with its own details and (hopefully) logical basis.

guess not unlike folks who might call-in to a radio show to debate the host - not trying to change the host's mind but to put the other side out there in the media forum.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Second is just a general observation that may or may not apply to any specific individual that posts here. I played/judged a lot of living campaigns in 3.x and 4E. In my experience with those campaigns and editions, most people that cared about optimization gravitated to a handful of builds.

In other words, to many people the multitude of options in previous editions was an illusion.
Sure, there are always going to be people that choose the best option, whether there are 5 options or 5000 options. I don't think that proves or disproves that 5 options is better than 5,000. (Numbers obviously made up here.)

I get the desire for more options and especially more significant choices at higher levels. I guess the difference may be that I have fun coming up with a character concept and then seeing if I can approximate that concept given the (somewhat limited) options I have.
I guess the fundamental difference is that my concepts revolve around what the character can DO, not what the character IS. I'll flesh out personality, backstory, and aesthetics after the mechanical concept is finished.

Ultimately you're going to have a few builds that do approximately the same thing. Blaster caster, control, hit things with melee, or hit things with ranged (I may be missing an option or two and there are combos). That's just the nature of the genre and foundation of the game. Are different ways of achieving that goal really going to feel all that different?
YES! A champion fighter, a hunter ranger, and a paladin/warlock may all focus on hitting things, but their experience in play is entirely different. Different resource suites, different stat dependencies, different skills.

Or ... what from a mechanical perspective what would you want to see? Not talking "I'd like to do a <insert class or prestige class I may or may not have heard of>", but mechanically. What gaps are missing? If you want to run a shaman for example, how does that differ from a druid (perhaps with multi-class) other than flavor that could be added with a background?
No idea. The best part of new mechanics is that they suggest new ideas that you haven't had before. Like, right now one of my characters is a homebrew class focused on using cantrips. It doesn't gain any spells other than cantrips, it just gets new abilities that make their cantrips stronger and more versatile. That's a concept I wouldn't have ever thought of until 5e introduced cantrips that were at-will and scaled, and thus suggested the possibility of concepts focused on using them.
 


pemerton

Legend
Possibly, yes, I mention that at the end of the bit you quote, and also in other parts of my post you chose not to quote. It would also depend on the system in question, and so on.

However, you brought up the example of the fine attire as something beneficial on which a PC can spend gold. My point is about how having a concrete benefit ahead of time that says "+2 on influence rolls" or "this roll is made with Advantage" or "the NPC's starting attitude will shift to Favorable" or something similar can actually serve as a limitation on play. When there are existing mechanics of this kind, players tend to say "Okay, we need to influence the noble...what can we do?" and they consult a list of actions the rules already addresses, and they limit their decision to those options.

Those mechanics codify what happens when the PC wears the attire. The GM does not need to determine what happens. Would you agree?

If not, and you feel the GM does have a strong role in the outcome, then I'm not sure if we're disagreeing. Perhaps it's just where the GM judgment comes into play? For you, it's okay for him to determine the DC and the results of a success or failure....but if I understand correctly, not in what's possible?

For me, I prefer if my players come up with what their characters do, and not decide what's available to them from a predetermined list, and then as DM, I can decide if a check is needed, and if so what kind and at what DC, and then the results the check.
You can list attire, or not, just as you can list weapons and armour, or not.

D&D lists weapons and armour. I don't believe it even mentions attire in this context.

Prince Valiant doen't list weapons at all (or rather, it indicates that a decent weapon grants a 1-die bonus to the pool) and it lists armour only as light, medium and heavy. It also mentions that attire and other signs of status or prestige can give a bonus when trying to influence others based on that status or prestige.

Burning Wheel has very detailed rules for weapons and armour (comparable to RuneQuest or Rolemaster in compelxity). It has sparser rules for attire, having "costs" (which in BW take the form of "points" in PC creation and difficulties for Resource checks in play) for normal gear and (what it calls) "finery", plus general rules for advantages and disadvantages on checks, and mentions that what one is wearing might confer an advantage or disadvantage on a check.

Marvel Heroic RP doesn't (as best I recall) mention attire, but it has a generic rule for creating resources. I once had a PC use this rule to equip Nightcrawler with an image inducer to get a bonus die when meeting people at a nightclub. Attire might be established via the same mechanic.

I'm increasingly unfond of static bonuses on roll-to-beat-difficulty checks, because they muck up the maths. So of your possibilities I would favour advantage over a +2. This is closer to introducing another die into the pool in the other systems I've mentioned.

I don't think that suggestions (for either players or GMs) about ways in which advantage might be gained, and suggestions about how this might correlate to money spent, are limiting. That's certainly not been my experience in systems that have them. I especially think that guidelines that help GMs manage the maths of what are rather intricate systems are helpful. To pick just two examples: Rolemaster is pretty hopeless at this; 4e is pretty strong at this. And when the GM is supported by robust guidelines over the top of robust maths, I think it's easier to run with player ideas without worrying about them breaking the system.

(Which presumably is one worry, maybe a major worry, for those in this thread who have expressed concerns about powergaming.)
 

pemerton

Legend
You would have to ask him, right? Normally, when someone proposes something, you ask them for more details, instead of assuming what they want and then arguing against it.
The only person who seems to have argued against it is you, by telling me that my analysis of the suggestion was foolish.

I think that a proposal like that means to use a similar system (as in, a table with values) that would be calibrated to 5e. That would make sense to me, in the same way that if I were to propose adopting a saving throws from 1e, I wouldn't mean, "Hey guys, let's just use the exact same tables without any changes!"
I don't think that's what [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] meant at all.

I mean, 5e already uses a table with values, in the sense that you can write them in from the presumed progression of WIS from 16 at 1st to 20 at 8th, and based on the WIS save bonus of the various undead who might be on the table. What distinguishes the AD&D table from the 5e table is the steepness of the progression, plus the T and D results, plus the limit on the number affected. Which are the things I addressed. (Well, not the T and D results, but they are further examples of the idea making mid-to-upper level clerics more effective when it comes to turning undead.)
 

Fallstorm

First Post
Not to speak for lowkey13, but I'm guessing the facepalm is because you're grossly mistaken. I'm guessing you didn't play RPGs in the late 70s/early 80s? Not only are you mistaken about how you think classes all played the same, but you are also mistaken about what RPGs were out there at the time. Just off the top of my head, there were also RPGs like Traveller, Top Secret, Marvel SuperHeroes, Boot Hill, Tunnels&Trolls, Gama World, Runequest, Palladium, Villains&Vigilantes, etc. Most of those were as early as the late 70s. And they aren't obscure either, they all were pretty popular.


Please, feel free to lecture me about the early days of RPGs.

But, fwiw, you didn't say D&D. You started by saying 1e. 1e is not D&D (OD&D, supplements). While it is arguable as to whether or not D&D was the first TTRPG, assuming it was, by the time 1e was being fully played and had a complete ruleset (MM, PHB, DMG) in 1979, RPGs were already everywhere.

The main period of 1e (1979 - 1989) happened to coincide with a massive explosion of RPGs. If 1e was the only thing you could play, you weren't even trying.

So, pretty much everything you said was factually incorrect. I also happen to disagree with your opinions, but those are yours. Enjoy them.

Actually I started playing 1989 which was 2E. That being said. I am aware other RPGs were out BUT they were not "popular" some people knew about them but when The AD&D PHB was released in 1978 there was not an RPG "market". IN FACT, for a long time even into the 90's to say RPGs were a market was a misnomer. D&D for all intents and purposes WAS the market. To be super technical as a viable market RPGs didn't become that until the D20 boom.

Yes. I had Marvel Superheroes (Blue box), Top Secret/S.I., and CoC and a host of others but to say these were popular and well played is not true. They were not available and most Walden and other bookstores beside D&D and other brands they way you can go into B&N today and see D&D, PF, etc. This is what prompted Ryan D during the D20 slow down to write an article (I believe on this very website) about how goes D&D so goes the market and to call RPGs a market is being very generous because even into the D20 boom from a marketing standpoint D&D was the market due to the small percentage of overall games TTRPGS occupies and the rpg games besides D&D even less. Even if D&D as a brand were to fall today which is something I hope never happens RPGs as a market would be hurt but survive. There have been numerous articles written on both these things but please feel free to tell me basic knowledge about dates of release which everyone knows or can get easily from Wikipedia. When I made the statement about D&D 1E being the standard at the time and not comparable I assumed I was dealing with people that could reasonably see that RPGs have advanced in complexity since that time and people's taste in terms of options have advanced as well, and that you knew that basically until the last few years TTRPGS in general were a "niche" market even for D&D (which is moving into the mainstream) so by default everything besides (D&D which as the biggest seller in a niche market) makes everything else obscure even if people know about it.

Also, for the record in the small town I lived in as a kid a lot of places had RPG shops that were a decent drive away. So my RPG library (some of which I have well kept from childhood) I had to either wait to drive into the larger metro area to get them OR special order them from a standard bookstore which was always a hassle because of how RPGS were listed. D&D never had that problem with. Bookstores even the local indy/used bookstore owned by ex-hippies in the town had SOME D&D titles.

All that being said I bet the next title that WOTC releases like Xanathar's etcetera that has some actual crunch to it well sell like hot cakes compared to their fluffy adventures. Heck, I bet psionics which is a very divisive subject in terms of inclusion into D&D (fantasy games in general really as opposed to sci-fi) well sell very well. Why? Options.

P.S. Just to put some things into perspective as of 2016-17 according to an article: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4258-How-big-s-the-RPG-market

Rpgs make up 2.9 percent of the hobby market. I am willing to bet the VAST majority of that is D&D with Pathfinder coming in a strong second. Pathfinder is a relatively recent game. So all these other games you mentioned which yes I and every other RPGer of a certain era knows about were obscure by definition and not as easily accessible as you may think. Comparing anything besides an intentional OSR game to 1E I in terms of options offered is nonsensical.
 
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