We're certainly aiming for a tendency to prefer to shoot someone than to engage them in melee, yep. Right now, unless you really specialize (archer ranger with all the right feats and stuff) the optimal tactic is almost always to close.
Making firearms more important
We're certainly aiming for a tendency to prefer to shoot someone than to engage them in melee, yep. Right now, unless you really specialize (archer ranger with all the right feats and stuff) the optimal tactic is almost always to close.
malcolm_n
Adventurer
Not exactly what I meant, but I get what you're saying. I do have a question, though. What is it, right now, about ranged combat in PF that makes melee better? Why do people prefer to close in for combat? I think, if we can really dig in and answer that question, we'll have our answer.
I guess the proficiency element you raised is the core thing. Archer rangers stay at distance because that's what they're good at. So do wizards. Most fighters close.
At first blush - and I'd have to look more closely - I guess it's that, magic aside, there are far more ways to be good at whacking someone with an axe in the core rules than there are ways to be good at shooting them. Of the non-magical attack forms, there are far more melee prefering classes than ranged preferring classes.
Add to that the fact that closing with a ranged combatant pretty much nerfs him completely in the core rules.
malcolm_n
Adventurer
That's what I would say too, I just wanted to be sure we're on the same page. So, here's a short list of things I would think to do to promote ranged vs. Melee
1) classes aren't immediately proficient with classic weapons. A very short list (baton, dagger, arm-blade) exists for the characters who still want that option. Anything not immediately presented in the guide is exotic.
2) shooting a firearm in melee doesn't draw an attack of opportunity. firearms add Dexterity modifier to damage (energy bows and some rifles can still use Str if you buy them as composite). Some firearms (sonic pistols for example) deal more damage when you're closer. All firearms are superior/more efficient in cost and functionality to melee weapons.
3) Allow for attacks of opportunity to extend to ranged weapons within 1 increment. If a character isn't carefully avoiding getting shot (retreat), he probably will be.
4) Review melee-centric feats and find a ranged alternative. Tripping probably wouldn't be a huge issue in this setting, but disarming would make more sense. Other examples include:
* Spring attack now allows you to make any attack (melee or ranged).
* Cut the BAB requirement on other ranged-centric feats in half (Improved Precise shot requires +4, Pinpoint Targeting +8, Manyshot +3)
Ricochet (combat)
You can shoot two nearby foes with a single round.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Deadly Aim, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single ranged attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within 1 range increment. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against another foe that is within 10 ft. of the first and also within range. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. You leave yourself exposed when you use this feat, so you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Uncanny Ricochet (combat)
You can shoot nearby foes with a single round.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Ricochet, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use Ricochet, you can continue to make additional attacks so long as you continue to hit targets that meet the requirements. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once as a result of this feat.
Scattershot (Combat)
You unleash a barrage of carefully calculated attacks against your enemies.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, shot on the run, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one ranged attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within range. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.
When you use the Scattershot feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
1) classes aren't immediately proficient with classic weapons. A very short list (baton, dagger, arm-blade) exists for the characters who still want that option. Anything not immediately presented in the guide is exotic.
2) shooting a firearm in melee doesn't draw an attack of opportunity. firearms add Dexterity modifier to damage (energy bows and some rifles can still use Str if you buy them as composite). Some firearms (sonic pistols for example) deal more damage when you're closer. All firearms are superior/more efficient in cost and functionality to melee weapons.
3) Allow for attacks of opportunity to extend to ranged weapons within 1 increment. If a character isn't carefully avoiding getting shot (retreat), he probably will be.
4) Review melee-centric feats and find a ranged alternative. Tripping probably wouldn't be a huge issue in this setting, but disarming would make more sense. Other examples include:
* Spring attack now allows you to make any attack (melee or ranged).
* Cut the BAB requirement on other ranged-centric feats in half (Improved Precise shot requires +4, Pinpoint Targeting +8, Manyshot +3)
Ricochet (combat)
You can shoot two nearby foes with a single round.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Deadly Aim, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single ranged attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within 1 range increment. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against another foe that is within 10 ft. of the first and also within range. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. You leave yourself exposed when you use this feat, so you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Uncanny Ricochet (combat)
You can shoot nearby foes with a single round.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Ricochet, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use Ricochet, you can continue to make additional attacks so long as you continue to hit targets that meet the requirements. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once as a result of this feat.
Scattershot (Combat)
You unleash a barrage of carefully calculated attacks against your enemies.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, shot on the run, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one ranged attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within range. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.
When you use the Scattershot feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
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DireWereTeddy
First Post
On the subject of overwatch/readied actions, I find that players don't use them for two reasons: there's no obvious benefit and they forget about them. Both problems have the same solution for me, using readied actions for their enemies. If their enemies are taking cover, using suppressive fire, and readied actions, then the players tend to catch on and duplicate those actions, especially if ranged action is preferable. Even melee combatants will, though in different manners.
On the subject of suppressive fire, the intent is to keep your enemy from acting. The effectiveness is obviously dependent on the weapon being used. I do think it should be a standard action (allowing someone to lay down their own suppressing fire while they dash for another piece of cover).
Maybe a combat maneuver, requiring an automatic or semiautomatic weapon, affecting either a 10x10 square or a 20 ft line until the beginning of their next turn. A single attack roll is made against anyone in the area without total cover, and applies to everyone enters, exits cover, or ends their turn within the area. Anyone within the area receives a -4 to attack rolls.
On the subject of suppressive fire, the intent is to keep your enemy from acting. The effectiveness is obviously dependent on the weapon being used. I do think it should be a standard action (allowing someone to lay down their own suppressing fire while they dash for another piece of cover).
Maybe a combat maneuver, requiring an automatic or semiautomatic weapon, affecting either a 10x10 square or a 20 ft line until the beginning of their next turn. A single attack roll is made against anyone in the area without total cover, and applies to everyone enters, exits cover, or ends their turn within the area. Anyone within the area receives a -4 to attack rolls.
malcolm_n
Adventurer
I like that as a maneuver. One thing I need to do is explain clearly what items are automatic or not. I'll be sure to do that.
How's this?
Suppressive Fire (Combat Maneuver): Sometimes it becomes necessary to protect your allies from enemy fire. By doing so, you give them a chance to shoot back. As a standard action when wielding at least a semiautomatic weapon (or if you have the rapid reload feat), target a 20 ft. cone or a 35 ft. line from your current location and make a single CMB check. Until the start of your next turn, creatures with CMD less than your check take a -4 penalty to attack as long as they remain in the area. For this maneuver, add bonuses for cover and concealment to the targets’ CMD. Suppressive Fire draws attacks of opportunity.
Feat: Greater Suppressive Fire
You are skilled at keeping your enemies busy so your allies can attack or work unhindered.
Prerequisite: Improved Suppressive Fire, BAB +6.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to use suppressive fire. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Suppressive Fire. In addition, when an enemy leaves your area of suppressive fire, it still takes a -2 penalty to attacks that round.
Feat: Improved Suppressive Fire
You are skilled at keeping your enemies busy so your allies can attack or work unhindered.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a suppressive fire combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to use suppressive fire. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to use suppressive fire against you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a suppressive fire combat maneuver.
Feat: Overwatch
You take careful aim at an enemy you know is hiding. When he shows himself, you strike.
Prerequisite: BAB +1
Benefit: When readying an action to attack a hidden creature, you get a +4 bonus to your attack roll if that creature hasn't moved since the start of your last turn.(may need rewording, suggestions?)
Normal: You gain no bonus to attack creatures for which you ready an action.
How's this?
Suppressive Fire (Combat Maneuver): Sometimes it becomes necessary to protect your allies from enemy fire. By doing so, you give them a chance to shoot back. As a standard action when wielding at least a semiautomatic weapon (or if you have the rapid reload feat), target a 20 ft. cone or a 35 ft. line from your current location and make a single CMB check. Until the start of your next turn, creatures with CMD less than your check take a -4 penalty to attack as long as they remain in the area. For this maneuver, add bonuses for cover and concealment to the targets’ CMD. Suppressive Fire draws attacks of opportunity.
Feat: Greater Suppressive Fire
You are skilled at keeping your enemies busy so your allies can attack or work unhindered.
Prerequisite: Improved Suppressive Fire, BAB +6.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to use suppressive fire. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Suppressive Fire. In addition, when an enemy leaves your area of suppressive fire, it still takes a -2 penalty to attacks that round.
Feat: Improved Suppressive Fire
You are skilled at keeping your enemies busy so your allies can attack or work unhindered.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a suppressive fire combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to use suppressive fire. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to use suppressive fire against you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a suppressive fire combat maneuver.
Feat: Overwatch
You take careful aim at an enemy you know is hiding. When he shows himself, you strike.
Prerequisite: BAB +1
Benefit: When readying an action to attack a hidden creature, you get a +4 bonus to your attack roll if that creature hasn't moved since the start of your last turn.(may need rewording, suggestions?)
Normal: You gain no bonus to attack creatures for which you ready an action.
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malcolm_n
Adventurer
Paint me a scenario here, if you will. Right now, I'm seeing these as follows.
Suppressive Fire: As the engineer works to fix the damaged computer console, bullets are flying by his head. His ally, the soldier, steps out from behind the door and lays down a spray of bullets to keep the bad guys at bay while his friend continues to work.
^^ this is represented by the maneuver and feats above.
Overwatch: In the middle of a gun fight, everybody is behind barrels. One guy leans out, pops a round or two off, then hides again. The canny soldier positions himself so that the next time one of his enemies shows himself, he can shoot the villain. Taking aim at the last place he saw the guy shoot from, the soldier is ready to open fire.
Suppressive Fire: As the engineer works to fix the damaged computer console, bullets are flying by his head. His ally, the soldier, steps out from behind the door and lays down a spray of bullets to keep the bad guys at bay while his friend continues to work.
^^ this is represented by the maneuver and feats above.
Overwatch: In the middle of a gun fight, everybody is behind barrels. One guy leans out, pops a round or two off, then hides again. The canny soldier positions himself so that the next time one of his enemies shows himself, he can shoot the villain. Taking aim at the last place he saw the guy shoot from, the soldier is ready to open fire.
In my mind, overwatch covers an area not a specific target - it certainly does in computer games and tabletop skirmish games. He should be able to take a shot at *anyone* who pops their head out, not just one guy.
I'd call aiming where one specific guy is to be "covering" or "specific overwatch" or -- well, I can't think of a good name. Marking. Dunno - you could have it as a specific form of overwatch which is better but only applies to that one target.
DireWereTeddy
First Post
Suppressive Fire looks good, but here's a few considerations, depending on how 'realistic' you want. The first is that part of what makes suppressive fire effective is that you risk damage from the suppressive fire itself if you break cover. As it stands, I'm not seeing any reason for someone not to break cover and move for someplace outside the area. Maybe an attack of opportunity, with a penalty since you're not aiming, against anyone who takes an action in the area without total cover. Also, concealment doesn't provide much benefit against suppressive fire because you're not aiming specifically for someone. I'm also tempted to give semiautomatic weapons a penalty when using the maneuver. Some of it depends on how complicated you want the maneuver to be, there's a line between effective and overly complicated and I'm still working on finding it. Perhaps limit the maneuver to automatic weapons and a feat to allow it to be used with semiautomatic weapons at a penalty or with a smaller area?
Semiautomatic Suppression
Prerequisite: Dex 13, proficiency with semiautomatic weapon
Benefit: You can use the Suppressive Fire maneuver with a semiautomatic weapon, except that you target a 15 (10?) foot cone or a 20 foot line and receive a -2 penalty to your CMB check.
Normal: You require an automatic weapon to use the Suppressive Fire maneuver.
I'm still torn on Overwatch as a maneuver versus a simple readied action. Maybe something like this?
Overwatch
While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten a cone equal to half your weapon's maximum range. Make a CMB check. Creatures with a CMD less than your check provoke AoO whenever they make an action within your threatened area. You gain a +2 bonus on these AoO. Otherwise, AoO are only provoked when a creature moves within your threatened area.
Maybe something like that?
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