Are feats for customization?

delericho

Legend
I'm not convinced. The most optimal selection of a feat is still customization.

I think you understand me. And, indeed, it doesn't help that I agree with you that feats are about both.

But as a logical proposition, the OP's question was "are feats about A, or are they just about B?" Under the latter clause, specifically, if they're just about B, then that precludes them also being about A (or, indeed, C, D, or E). At which point, I label that clause "false", and look at A.

(But then, that's assuming the OP actually meant that, and that I'm not just applying my "software engineer" filter. :) )

The PrCs were an even bigger headache than the feats. And actually, the spells and even the magic items (if you assumed fungible treasure as default) were also a bigger headache than the feats.

Yeah, absolutely.

I personally like feats, and I think that they ought to be the primary vehicle for customization.

I would agree with this. But then, I'm probably biased - even from before 3e was released, I was convinced Prestige Classes were a terrible idea. Far better, IMO, to make either the base classes themselves more customisable or provide a far greater range of feats. Either way, PrCs become unnecessary.

(Actually, my preferred approach would be to move those feats that give new powers, such as Power Attack, into a separate category (talents), and keep the feats as minor customisations to the character. But then, I invariably found my efforts to house rule 3e into shape left me always wanting to make "one more change"... until the whole thing collapsed under the weight of changes I wanted to make.)
 

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Celebrim

Legend
But as a logical proposition, the OP's question was "are feats about A, or are they just about B?" Under the latter clause, specifically, if they're just about B, then that precludes them also being about A (or, indeed, C, D, or E). At which point, I label that clause "false", and look at A.

There is an edge care here, and it is that edge case I'm arguing for and that is when A = B. In this case, something can be both about A and just about B because we can restate the phrase as "are feats about A, or are they just about A?" Since being "just about A" implies being "about A" we can answer "Yes" or maybe more precisely, "False contradiction", since the original poster seemed to be implying A is mutually exclusive with B (B = !A), which is false if (B = A). If the OP wasn't implying they are contradictory (inclusive or), then A = true and B = true implies A || B = true.

It remains to show that A = B.

By Feat I mean, "An optional benefit that can be selected and gained by multiple classes as a part of character advancement", to distinguish it from Traits (which are often listed with feats but lack the characteristic of feats in being gained in character advancement) and class abilities which are listed with feats but are actually only obtainable within the frame work of the progression of a single class (these can be variously named, but for now lets use the term 'Mutations' for the fun of it). This is a rather particular definition but I think it is a good one. I'm having to make this particular definition to avoid some edge cases (that I previously alluded too), namely a feat that isn't a benefit ("paying to suck"?). However, since the feat structure includes the word 'benefit' right there in the text, we can I think safely assume that 'benefit' is or was the intention.

Proving Feats "just make the character better" is now trivial. By definition that's what a benefit does. All feats by definition "just make the character better".

But, proving that Feats are customization is nearly as easy. Customization means, "To make or alter to individual or personal specifications". Since feats are optional, specific, and alter the characteristics of the character, they are customization by definition. Not every customization is a feat, and not everything that "just makes the character better" is a feat, but the entire circle I've just labeled Feat fits within the space of "customization" and "makes everything better". Moreover, "makes something better" is also entirely within the space of customization (again, by definition) so it is possible then to say that Feats are A and also just B, because we can find no counter case where the Feat is "just B" but not A.

We can imagine feat replacements and things that look like feats but aren't that are customizations but don't "just make the character better", but these edge cases ('Traits', 'Disadvantages', 'Mutations', etc.) are really not feats but choices that replace feats (or which can sometimes be replaced by feats) or which allow for the choice of additional feats. They are not feats as I've formally defined them, and in some cases ('Disadvantages') they wouldn't be recognized as being true feats.

I would agree with this. But then, I'm probably biased - even from before 3e was released, I was convinced Prestige Classes were a terrible idea. Far better, IMO, to make either the base classes themselves more customisable or provide a far greater range of feats. Either way, PrCs become unnecessary.

We seem to be in agreement on this.

(Actually, my preferred approach would be to move those feats that give new powers, such as Power Attack, into a separate category (talents)

Power granting feats have always been problematic for me, and most of them are in my opinion kludges - late recognition of a shortcoming in the system that was most easily addressed by having feat. I generally use what I call "The Playground Test". If the power is one which we can imagine two elementary students using on one another in their playground scuffle, it probably shouldn't be a feat. So for example, I would object to a Feat that allowed you to make a trip attack; conversely, I would not object to a feat that allowed you to perform a trip attack better. It's never been completely clear to me that Power Attack doesn't fail the play ground test, if it represents something like a "haymaker" or other telescoped attack. If that is the case, Power Attack should become a generic combat option, and the feat "Improved Power Attack" would then be a feat and not what you call 'a talent'.

The problem is that almost all talents potentially fail this test. It isn't clear that for example, the "High School" test or "Graduate Student" test isn't equally applicable as an evaluator. If we say that 'a talent' represents the result of more particular sorts of training, it's not clear that it isn't simply some more difficult application of skill and ability that should be available to everyone of sufficient skill and ability and that the best implementation is not move it in to the generic skill or combat system and then making a feat that represents the ability to perform this relatively early and well (by this theory, all feats are simply variants on Skill Focus). I've come close to deciding this should be a hard rule several times, and I'm certainly much closer to that in my implementation than stock 3.X and just about all 3rd party implementations. There are however a few cases where I've just felt it more interesting to silo the power within a feat, typically by making it an extension of or alternate use of an existing skill or where the feat grants a miniature version of what is normally a class ability without the prerequisite of taking the class (say the ability to cast cantrips or orisons).
 
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delericho

Legend
There is an edge care here, and it is that edge case I'm arguing for and that is when A = B.

Ah, gotcha. I'm not sure that I'd agree that A = B... but from the other direction (all optimisations are customisations, but not all customisations are optimisations). But that relies on the player choosing a truly useless feat (like the original Prone Shooter), so probably isn't worth debating.

In any case, I think we're on the same page. And, yes, "false contradiction" is a good way of putting it.

Power granting feats have always been problematic for me, and most of them are in my opinion kludges - late recognition of a shortcoming in the system that was most easily addressed by having feat. I generally use what I call "The Playground Test". If the power is one which we can imagine two elementary students using on one another in their playground scuffle, it probably shouldn't be a feat. So for example, I would object to a Feat that allowed you to make a trip attack; conversely, I would not object to a feat that allowed you to perform a trip attack better. It's never been completely clear to me that Power Attack doesn't fail the play ground test, if it represents something like a "haymaker" or other telescoped attack. If that is the case, Power Attack should become a generic combat option, and the feat "Improved Power Attack" would then be a feat and not what you call 'a talent'.

The problem is that almost all talents potentially fail this test. It isn't clear that for example, the "High School" test or "Graduate Student" test isn't equally applicable as an evaluator. If we say that 'a talent' represents the result of more particular sorts of training, it's not clear that it isn't simply some more difficult application of skill and ability that should be available to everyone of sufficient skill and ability and that the best implementation is not move it in to the generic skill or combat system and then making a feat that represents the ability to perform this relatively early and well (by this theory, all feats are simply variants on Skill Focus). I've come close to deciding this should be a hard rule several times, and I'm certainly much closer to that in my implementation than stock 3.X and just about all 3rd party implementations. There are however a few cases where I've just felt it more interesting to silo the power within a feat, typically by making it an extension of or alternate use of an existing skill or where the feat grants a miniature version of what is normally a class ability without the prerequisite of taking the class (say the ability to cast cantrips or orisons).

Interesting. I like the "playground test".

Where I differ, though, is that I take the view that even 'mundane' D&D characters are, after a certain level (5th in 3e), already superhuman. The mere fact that they can fall great distances and be certain of walking away pretty much proves this. That being the case, the "playground test" only applies somewhat - those talents that would be applicable for higher levels shouldn't simply be things that anyone can do, nor even (necessarily) extrapolations of them, but closer to the feats we see in action movies.

But I'm certainly not going to claim that one as a universal definition! So YMMV, of course. :)
 

Manabarbs

Explorer
In 4e, they use feats as "math" fixes. Which I think is a lousy way to use feats. Basically, the Expertise and Non-AC-defense feats are just a feat "tax". Nothing to do with specialization or customization.
I don't think that that was the design intent from the get-go as much as the still-not-great path of least resistance when it came to touching up the math. After release, it became clear that characters' to-hit and NADs slide a little backwards compared to the rest of the system, so they introduced feats that patch up the gap. There are plenty of cons to this approach, but I guess they decided it was the least disruptive. It's not a general 4e design principle to do that, and only a teensy minority of the feats in the system are math fixes, but they happen to be among the best feats mathematically, and it feels lame to spend customization slots on something mostly invisible, even if it's technically a substantial improvement to character performance.
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
In 4e, they use feats as "math" fixes. Which I think is a lousy way to use feats. Basically, the Expertise and Non-AC-defense feats are just a feat "tax". Nothing to do with specialization or customization.
Agreed. Those few feats really are the fly in the 4e pudding.

I don't think that that was the design intent from the get-go as much as the still-not-great path of least resistance when it came to touching up the math. After release, it became clear that characters' to-hit and NADs slide a little backwards compared to the rest of the system, so they introduced feats that patch up the gap. There are plenty of cons to this approach, but I guess they decided it was the least disruptive. It's not a general 4e design principle to do that, and only a teensy minority of the feats in the system are math fixes, but they happen to be among the best feats mathematically, and it feels lame to spend customization slots on something mostly invisible, even if it's technically a substantial improvement to character performance.
I'd also point out that the original math-fix feat taxes appears right in the 3.0 PHB -- Weapon Finesse and Power Attack. Dex-based characters don't leave home without WF, and every high-level muggle needs a way to trade accuracy for damage!
 
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Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
Are feats used for customization or are they just to make the character better at a given shtick? Is that really customization? If feats didn't exist would you feel your character was less unique?
The former, by both intent and [sometimes] in practice.

That said, I could happily game without feats except that I can't think of a better way to handle things like extra languages and extra skills. Maybe someday someone will come up with a brilliant way to handle those things, and we won't need feats anymore.
 

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