Are feats for customization?

Wiseblood

Adventurer
Are feats used for customization or are they just to make the character better at a given shtick? Is that really customization? If feats didn't exist would you feel your character was less unique?

I'm asking because most of the feats I see don't really strike me as customization. Instead they strike me as ways to make the character better at X. If a feat is good it gets picked a lot. If it sucks, it rarely gets used. Not-taking/taking a feat can make or break your character. In that case customization points are suck or be average. Because people generally do not want to be gimped they will select the better of the two. System mastery consumes some players and lack thereof has led to the gnashing of teeth. (both for the victim of trap feats and their boon companions)

So are feats for customization or are they an excuse for rules bloat and splatbooks? And if they are not customization what does it look like?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Stormonu

Legend
You could say the same thing about races and classes, I believe. Feats were intended as a customization tool, a way to differtiate one character from another. I'd be loathe to play D&D without them, but I did it for 20 years, I guess I could do it again. But I'd include feats if I could.
 

the Jester

Legend
Are feats used for customization or are they just to make the character better at a given shtick? Is that really customization?

Why wouldn't it be?

Say you put a custom engine in your car. Your car might now be faster; it is still customized. The circles on that Venn diagram overlap.

If feats didn't exist would you feel your character was less unique?

Um. Depends on the character, and on the context.

Speaking mechanically, yes, of course.

From a strictly rp perspective, not necessarily.

If a feat is good it gets picked a lot. If it sucks, it rarely gets used.

Well, of course! Any option in the game that, strictly speaking, sucks, should see rare use!

The solution isn't to eliminate a category of options, IMHO; it's to make sure none of those options suck. Make all feats worthwhile choices.

Not-taking/taking a feat can make or break your character. In that case customization points are suck or be average. Because people generally do not want to be gimped they will select the better of the two. System mastery consumes some players and lack thereof has led to the gnashing of teeth. (both for the victim of trap feats and their boon companions)

Except in games where the dm balances everything against optimal characters, I don't think a single feat will ever make or break your character. YMMV, obviously.
 


delericho

Legend
Are feats used for customization or are they just to make the character better at a given shtick?

I think the original intention was that they would be for customisation. That's why, with the exception of two (IIRC - Weapon Specialisation and its successors, and Spell Mastery), none of the feats in the 3.0e PHB list a specific class or race among the prerequisites.

But then, I'm also reasonably sure 3e was developed on the assumption that people wouldn't try to optimise their characters. Meanwhile, in the real world, feats very quickly became a quick and easy way for the designers to add huge amounts of stuff to the game, and they equally quickly became about optimising your shtick. (And that's why so many of the PHB feats are now declared "worthless" by the CharOp groups... they weren't intended for optimisation, and so they're generally bad at it.)
 

Blackbrrd

First Post
In 4e, they use feats as "math" fixes. Which I think is a lousy way to use feats. Basically, the Expertise and Non-AC-defense feats are just a feat "tax". Nothing to do with specialization or customization.

I prefer 5e's take on feats where they look like a big building block for your character. Having less of them is something I think makes them more of a customization than specialization, but really it's a bit of both.
 

Kinak

First Post
Are feats used for customization or are they just to make the character better at a given shtick? Is that really customization?
I think almost by definition, making your character better at a given shtick is customization. There are other kinds of customization, but that definitely is one.

Now, if everybody always chooses the same shtick, it's pretty boring game design. But that doesn't necessarily mean people won't still enjoy the process.

If feats didn't exist would you feel your character was less unique?
I strictly GM and, as a GM, don't want to deal with feats at all. My players, on the other hand, would feel that their characters were less unique.

Let's see. We have one ranger with basically every archery feat, which is customization of a fairly obvious type. And a cleric with a bunch of healing feats, which seems like it should be obvious but actually isn't very well supported. Then we have a fighter/paladin with a mash of tanking, intimidating, and damage feats. And the rogue mostly has combat stuff, trying to upgrade the class into more of a front-liner.

With the exception of the rogue, all those players would feel their characters were less "theirs" without the feats. And they'd find leveling up less exciting. They enjoy picking out feats, even if you may think those choices are obvious.

Cheers!
Kinak
 

Celebrim

Legend
Are feats used for customization or are they just to make the character better at a given shtick?

Explain the difference.

Is that really customization?

So far as I can tell. I can think of some sorts of customization that aren't just making your character better at something, but usually these fall into the class of 'making your character worse at something' or 'making your character better at something in exchange for being worse at something else'. Usually feats per se don't do the latter types because it requires an explanation of why you evolve worse skills at something.

If feats didn't exist would you feel your character was less unique?

Well, yes. Let's say a character qualifies for 400 different feats. By the time two similar characters have picked 4-5 feats, it's very unlikely that they'll be exactly alike. Contrast this with a situation without feats, and its very likely the two characters will have no mechanical differences and what differences they have will need to be entirely created by my role play without any mechanical support.

I'm asking because most of the feats I see don't really strike me as customization. Instead they strike me as ways to make the character better at X.

I'm not seeing the difference.

If a feat is good it gets picked a lot. If it sucks, it rarely gets used.

That's the fault of design. It just means that some feats are too attractive and some other feats don't offer enough value. You could customize, but the design pushes you toward following well travelled routes. That's customization too, but its customization that involves everyone customizing in the same way because it's so much more optimal than your other options.

It sounds to me like you are conflating 'customization' with 'making non-optimal character building choices'. But again, this is a problem of design not achieving good balance. One of the problems with feats is that they look easy to design and anyone can easily spam out 50 or a 100 different feats. But just because they are easy to write, doesn't make them easy to design. In fact, feats can be agonizingly difficult to get right and far too many feats out there are just pointless bloat and spam, or worse end up making what is already good better in sufficient ways that it breaks while ignoring what is flavorful but lacking in mechanical heft.
 

delericho

Legend
Explain the difference.

I think the key lies in the word 'just'. That is, feats can be about customisation and about optimisation, but they can't be both about customisation and just about optimisation.

That's the fault of design. It just means that some feats are too attractive and some other feats don't offer enough value. You could customize, but the design pushes you toward following well travelled routes.

It sounds to me like you are conflating 'customization' with 'making non-optimal character building choices'. But again, this is a problem of design not achieving good balance.

Indeed. I think that was a problem we saw a lot with 3e (and PF and, to a lesser extent, 4e): the game provides scope for many hundreds or thousands of possible options, but so many of them were just bad. The net effect was that you basically chose the concept you wanted to embody and then most of the other choices just fell out very quickly - if you want an archer then you want one of these three builds, etc.

But that defeats the point of having all those options in the first place - you might as well just have a single "archer" class with the three choices hard-coded. You don't gain anything by adding hundreds of additional options if they're all bad choices.

(Having said that, I don't think the WotC designers set out to create a whole bunch of bad choices, and neither could they realistically consider all the combinations. And that's something I think - or at least thought - they'd sorted out with 5e, where they'd have the player make some big choices that would define the important stuff about his character, and then they'd have the option of then adding some small customisations that wouldn't matter too much if they got wrong. Sadly, it looks like they've backed off from the race/class/background trio and made feats much more important again.)
 

Celebrim

Legend
I think the key lies in the word 'just'. That is, feats can be about customisation and about optimisation, but they can't be both about customisation and just about optimization.

I'm not convinced. The most optimal selection of a feat is still customization. It's just not necessarily differentiation, in that everyone is driven toward choosing the same feat and applying the same customizations. But even something like, "+1 bonus on all saves", if it turns out that this is an optimal and even necessary choice, is providing customization and differentiation between those that take it and those that don't. This customization is sadly rendered shallow and trivial, in that instead of choosing a make a character that carries the flavor, "Lucky" or "Hard to Stop", you are really choosing between "Doesn't Suck" and "Sucks". But it is still customization, even if everyone is pushed toward taking it.

the game provides scope for many hundreds or thousands of possible options, but so many of them were just bad. The net effect was that you basically chose the concept you wanted to embody and then most of the other choices just fell out very quickly - if you want an archer then you want one of these three builds, etc.

True, but just being able to say, "I want to play an archer", and their being three very viable options implies that there are hundreds of possible options that don't suck.

The biggest problem 3.X ultimately had was not that it didn't have hundreds of possible options, but that the balance between 'Optimal' and 'Not Optimal' was so poor. The range of possible power levels depending on you system mastery and approach to character building was just too great, which made it impossible to offer advice on game balance and rendered any attempt to consider the question of balance within the context of such an already imbalanced system impossible. Worse, it was seldom obvious how you'd optimize a particular concept - taking 20 levels of fighter to build the ultimate archer probably wouldn't be nearly as optimal as a new player would think. Instead, optimization of a particular concept usually involved combining 3-6 esoteric and sometimes obscure classes with particular feats and items. That's horrible character design, albeit one that probably sells a lot of books to a certain class of player.

But that defeats the point of having all those options in the first place - you might as well just have a single "archer" class with the three choices hard-coded. You don't gain anything by adding hundreds of additional options if they're all bad choices.

Maybe, but its worth noting that 3.X actually did both things simultaneously - offering hundreds of marginal feat options together with hundreds of classes with hard-coded choices in the form of PrCs. The PrCs were an even bigger headache than the feats. And actually, the spells and even the magic items (if you assumed fungible treasure as default) were also a bigger headache than the feats. The net result was a system where it was impossible to evaluate the utility of a feat or anything else without knowledge of everything else in the game, and everything else in the game quickly became too large to easily evaluate even for the publishers. And the net result of that was a system were most builds were junk, and those that weren't tended to be broken (in the sense that they rendered most challenges you'd expect them to undertake trivial).

I personally like feats, and I think that they ought to be the primary vehicle for customization. But I admit that they are hard to design. I think I've got a pretty good feat set in my current homebrew, but I also admit that the feat structure is probably one area I most want to rethink. There are a lot of cases where I think utility could be tweaked.
 

Remove ads

Top