D&D 5E Was I in the wrong?

ThirdWizard said:

I'd personally apologies and retcon the situation, and then use this as a learning experience.

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I would never retcon a situation like this. First, I am not sure that this was an unfair gotcha. I might have called for a wisdom check or something, but the players were told that the armor, gauntlets and ring were an integrated set. I am uncertain why they thought they could sell the armor but keep those items in light of that. I feel quite certain that if a merchant sold my party armor that had integrated magic items...and then he later came back and claimed it was a mistake, we'd feel strongly that a deal is a deal.

Second, and more importantly, rather than retcon, you can redirect. For example, have the blacksmith come to them in a panic and offer to give them the Gauntlets and rings if they will help him find his daughter, who's gone missing. Or, when the players go to steal the ring and guantlet, they find the blacksmith, dead, the armor (guantlets, rings and all) gone...and so now they have a murder to solve and if they can find the murderers, they can find their items.

Saeviomagy said:

Well it's not even that. It's the case of a character looking at something and the player being expected to remember what it looked like to some other character some time ago instead of being told what it looks like.

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The player was there at the table when it was explained to the other player, so his PC knew what it looked like.

Maxperson said:

The player was there at the table when it was explained to the other player, so his PC knew what it looked like.

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rule number one. ThE player determines his characters actions. The player determined his character would offer do to sell the armor and notthe ring or gauntlets. His character offered to sell the armor to the blacksmith. The blacksmith bought the armor for a price that was fair for the armor only. Character and player both believe the only the armor was sold. It's only later that it's revealed the player actually sold more than he explicitly stated that he sold.

The problem is the dm didn't trick the character. He took control of the character and characters actions without the players consent.

Pandaemoni said:

I would never retcon a situation like this. First, I am not sure that this was an unfair gotcha. I might have called for a wisdom check or something, but the players were told that the armor, gauntlets and ring were an integrated set. I am uncertain why they thought they could sell the armor but keep those items in light of that. I feel quite certain that if a merchant sold my party armor that had integrated magic items...and then he later came back and claimed it was a mistake, we'd feel strongly that a deal is a deal.

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The PC even made a very high Int check to appraise the items he was selling, and the DM didn't inform him that there were two extra things in the pile. This was 100% a gotcha. I don't see how it isn't a gotcha when the PC made a very high roll to determine the value of what he was selling, and because the player didn't explicitly say he wasn't selling the gauntlet and ring, the PC was incapable of realizing that those two things were also for sale. This was DM manipulation of the situation at best. I cannot see it any other way.

In a case such as this, I absolutely call for retcon.

Pandaemoni said:

Second, and more importantly, rather than retcon, you can redirect. For example, have the blacksmith come to them in a panic and offer to give them the Gauntlets and rings if they will help him find his daughter, who's gone missing. Or, when the players go to steal the ring and guantlet, they find the blacksmith, dead, the armor (guantlets, rings and all) gone...and so now they have a murder to solve and if they can find the murderers, they can find their items.

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But the player still feels like his PC acted stupidly, or feels as though the DM is just throwing them a bone. The DM should apologize for the actions, and I think a retcon is appropriate in order to signify to the players participating in the game that the DM understands what he did was unacceptable.

ThirdWizard said:

Snip.

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Agree to disagree, I suppose. I don't recall anything about the PC making a very high Int check to value the armor, although perhaps I missed that (in a subsequent post??). If he did that at the time, I'd certainly be more forgiving...although I'd still be inclined to say "You begin to remove the Gauntlets and the embedded ring when the blacksmith says 'Whoa, whoa, you agreed to sell me this whole set, where do you think you're going with those? A deal is a deal and those are mine now, son.'"

Were it my character, in any event, I'd have my character take the blame and play that for comedic effect--that the character made this awful deal because he was inattentive, and the blacksmith was cutting me no slack.

It seems like that is how the bulk of the players are taking it, and rolling with the punch they aren't calling for a retcon, let alone an "apology." This is a game where we collaboratively make up a story to amuse ourselves. For all the work a DM puts in, how many "thanks you's" does he or she get? If an apology and contrition is warranted after a single misstep, then I would assume that heartfelt gratitude should be expressly offered to the DM by his or her players after every single session, if not every encounter.

In my opinion, a player would really have to be a special, and especially sensitive and entitled, snowflake to demand an "apology" from the DM who otherwise does most of the work involved in letting that player have a word to play in. If a player asked my DM for one...wow. If I were DMing and a player demanded one of me...I might paraphrase A Few Good Men:

"Son, we play in a world that is entirely fictional, and events in that world have to be invented and run by DMs. Who else's gonna do it? You? Who can barely be bothered to listen to the list of loot that I had to generate? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the lost Gauntlets and you curse the loss of a ring. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of (apparently) not knowing what I know, that the mistake your character made in selling those items, while tragic, probably advanced your character's story arc. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, allows you to advance that story arc! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me running this world. You need me running this world. DMs use words like "encounters", "threats" "conflicts". We use these words as the backbone of many hours outside of the session spent creating something for the group's enjoyment. You use them as a complaint. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very entertainment that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you", and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a DMG and some graph paper, and run your own game. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!"

Pandaemoni said:

Agree to disagree, I suppose. I don't recall anything about the PC making a very high Int check to value the armor, although perhaps I missed that (in a subsequent post??). If he did that at the time, I'd certainly be more forgiving...although I'd still be inclined to say "You begin to remove the Gauntlets and the embedded ring when the blacksmith says 'Whoa, whoa, you agreed to sell me this whole set, where do you think you're going with those? A deal is a deal and those are mine now, son.'"

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FYI

randrak said:

The Ranger first chooses to go to the magic shop, but the rest of the party remind him that they do not have any money for identification spells. He goes to the blacksmith instead.
At the blacksmith (a half-orc they already know from before) he presents the bundled up armor. The blacksmith studies it, making note that the armor is very damaged (from the battles) and it would lower the price. At the mention of the price being lowered, the ranger asks if he can make a int check to learn how much such an armor would go for, he rolls well. The half-orc notices the magical ring and immediately asks "Are you looking to sell the whole thing?" to which the ranger immediately says yes. The blacksmith offers a price, the ranger isn't too sure since it was lower than expected. The blacksmith argues that with the damage would lower the price and he still needed to make a profit. The ranger still seems to have a hard time agreeing. The blacksmith quickly adds that it's money up-front. The ranger agrees.

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Emphasis added.

Pandaemoni said:

It seems like that is how the bulk of the players are taking it, and rolling with the punch they aren't calling for a retcon, let alone an "apology." This is a game where we collaboratively make up a story to amuse ourselves. For all the work a DM puts in, how many "thanks you's" does he or she get? If an apology and contrition is warranted after a single misstep, then I would assume that heartfelt gratitude should be expressly offered to the DM by his or her players after every single session, if not every encounter.

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I'm not implying that the DM should get on his hands and knees begging forgiveness here... He should swallow his pride, say "Sorry about that. It's my fault, you should have obviously known that the guantlets and ring were at least there since you were appraising the items. My bad."

Just like I would expect a player to apologize to the DM for being on their phone and missing out on an important description that happened in game.

Apologies exist to let the other party know that you do consider something a misstep. Without the apology, there isn't any indication that something won't happen again, and this is something I wouldn't expect to happen again, regardless of how much of a caricatureization one may make out of the word apology.

Pandaemoni said:

For all the work a DM puts in, how many "thanks you's" does he or she get? If an apology and contrition is warranted after a single misstep, then I would assume that heartfelt gratitude should be expressly offered to the DM by his or her players after every single session, if not every encounter.

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Anecdote time! (which is like Taco Time in that any time, is Anecdote Time).

I'm a DM. I don't actually put in that much work - I just improv and react to my players, make a very rough outline of the "plot" for a campaign, and basically do all of my work to prepare a year-long campaign in the time it takes to shower once.

I also apologize any time that I make a misstep as a DM, even if I have to first point out that I made said misstep because the players didn't actually notice (I.E. "I'm glad that worked out alright, but yeah, I totally messed up...")

And the real reason this anecdote came to mind: At the end of every session, I say something along the lines of "Alright fellas, see you next time," and each of players in turn says something along the lines of "I had a lot of fun tonight," "Thanks for running the game," or both, and I respond by thanking them for playing (because my campaigns just wouldn't be as much fun if no one played them).

The DMs #1 job is to make sure the game is fun for players. Fail in that job, and the game will eventually die.

A 'Gotcha' moment where [1.) the players are surprised, and 2.) where the gotcha leaves a sour taste in the mouths of the players] is, thus, a mistake. What constitutes such a moment will differ from group to group, but that clearly took place here.

It really is that simple. If you're more worried about doing the things you think are fun for you than you are worried about doing the things that the group will enjoy, you're not running the game for the group, you're running the group for your game.

jgsugden said:

The DMs #1 job is to make sure the game is fun for players. Fail in that job, and the game will eventually die.

A 'Gotcha' moment where [1.) the players are surprised, and 2.) where the gotcha leaves a sour taste in the mouths of the players] is, thus, a mistake. What constitutes such a moment will differ from group to group, but that clearly took place here.

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To be fair, he later posted an update suggesting that was *not* the case here:

randrak said:

Update

Had a talk with the group (not with the sorcerer, or Mr Cellphone as he has been called before, because he was busy). Apparently while annoyed at the NPC for tricking them, they were totally fine with what I did as a DM. They are already planning what to do next, coming up with all sorts of wild plans to get their items back. If anything, they informed me that they were most annoyed with the ranger for selling the cursed armor after selling the adamantine armor to the blacksmith, because they wanted to study and remove its curse so they could use it somehow. But the ranger absentmindedly decided to sell that armor as well, even when he had not been instructed to do so.

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I find it quite funny that a lot of the posters here are more offended about what happened then the players that it happened too.