Game Mechanics And Player Agency

The concept of player agency is a central pillar of all role-playing games. It is a balancing factor against the omnipotent, omniscient Game Master. For the purposes of this article, we will be focusing on the smaller-scale application of player agency and the role of game mechanics that negate or modify such agency.

The concept of player agency is a central pillar of all role-playing games. It is a balancing factor against the omnipotent, omniscient Game Master. For the purposes of this article, we will be focusing on the smaller-scale application of player agency and the role of game mechanics that negate or modify such agency.


From the very first iteration of Dungeons & Dragons in 1974, there have been mechanics in place in RPGs to force certain decisions upon players. A classic D&D example is the charm person spell, which allows the spell caster to bring someone under their control and command. (The 1983 D&D Basic Set even includes such a possible outcome in its very first tutorial adventure, in which your hapless Fighter may fall under the sway of Bargle and "decide" to let the outlaw magic-user go free even after murdering your friend Aleena!)

It didn't take long for other RPGs to start experimenting with even greater mechanical methods of limiting player agency. Call of Cthulhu (1981) introduced the Sanity mechanic as a way of tracking the player-characters' mental stress and degeneration in the face of mind-blasting horrors. But the Temporary Insanity rules also dictated that PCs exposed to particularly nasty shocks were no longer necessarily in control of their own actions. The current edition of the game even gives the Call of Cthulhu GM carte blanche to dictate the hapless investigator's fate, having the PC come to their senses hours later having been robbed, beaten, or even institutionalized!

King Arthur Pendragon debuted in 1985 featuring even more radical behavioral mechanics. The game's system of Traits and Passions perfectly mirrors the Arthurian tales, in which normally sensible and virtuous knights and ladies with everything to lose risk it all in the name of love, hatred, vengeance, or petty jealousy. So too are the player-knights of the game driven to foolhardy heroism or destructive madness, quite often against the players' wishes. Indeed, suffering a bout of madness in Pendragon is enough to put a player-knight out of the game sometimes for (quite literally) many game-years on end…and if the player-knight does return, they are apt to have undergone significant trauma reflected in altered statistics.

The legacies of Call of Cthulhu and King Arthur Pendragon have influenced numerous other game designs down to this day, and although the charm person spell is not nearly as all-powerful as it was when first introduced in 1974 ("If the spell is successful it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under the influence of the Magic-User until such time as the 'charm' is dispelled[.]"), it and many other mind-affecting spells and items continue to bedevil D&D adventurers of all types.

Infringing on player agency calls for great care in any circumstance. As alluded to at the top of this article, GMs already have so much power in the game, that to appear to take any away from the players is bound to rankle. This is likely why games developed mechanical means to allow GMs to do so in order to make for a more interesting story without appearing biased or arbitrary. Most players, after all, would refuse to voluntarily submit to the will of an evil wizard, to faint or flee screaming in the presence of cosmic horror, or to attack an ally or lover in a blind rage. Yet these moments are often the most memorable of a campaign, and they are facilitated by behavioral mechanics.

What do you think? What's your personal "red line" for behavioral mechanics? Do behavioral mechanics have any place in RPGs, and if so, to what extent? Most crucially: do they enhance narrative or detract from it?

contributed by David Larkins
 

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5ekyu

Hero
"In any event, I don't regard players arguing about the proper way forward as bad. When the stakes are high, and different PCs have differing goals, then there should be disagreement and debate. But it can be handy to have a way to resolve it that doesn't require any player to squib in the play of their PC. Mechanical resolution is one way to do that."

But to me, it seems that mechanical resolution in this case is "squib" (if by that you mean intentionally subdue) their roleplaying.

The "we both disagree and we are both stubborn **is** a roleplaying in-character issue that deserves an in character resolution. It has consequences to "go to far" and the characters need to get their "why do i stay" decisions made.

Shifting those consequenes under the "mechanics check" is cutting their decisions short **maybe**. What happens next time when the check fails or is inconclusive? What happens when the course **rolled** proves harder, at what point do the characters get to think again instead of following rolls...

Just had a sesdion where the team had their "what do we do now" with multiple options and different advocates... But in no small part because they in character value each other working together, we do not have the loggerhead ad infinitum cuz their characters dont have any "just stubborn it out til the die roll" option. The characters know not finding a way to work it out means bigger problems.

I always establish rule zero - staying together is **their job**. Nobody gets to PC their way to hang around if they create unworkable dynamics.

I find that tends to nip the "unrelenting vs unyieldings" in the bud since neither side can run the math and then run out their clock.

(Same for NPCs but that should be obvious.)
 

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Hussar

Legend
In actual play for my game from their last mission...

PCs set in at a station collected their pay and immediately began planning an ecpedition to a graveyard of ships for a salvage run to get themselves a ship to refurb and rebuild.

A local official who had had some prior favorable contact got in touch, confirmed their plans and offered a second mission - gather id, dna, tags etc on as many of the dead in the ships so the next of kin could be identified.

Offered to pay so much for dna and more for full remains.

Group was inclined to say yes but suspicious and concerned about cargo space etc, so he offered to help with hiring etc for their mission.

Solved the question and they went out both sides benefitted with no need for the persuasive npc rolling to change their mind and force them to accept.

When they got back, even sweetened deal by helping them arrange favorable sales of salvage (basically he used his "sales time" while they were salvaging instead of them having to after they got back) establishing more good will for next time.

"NPC rolled, your character likes the deal" might have been easier but much less interesting, imo.

But, why would you roll dice here? The PC's are going on a mission. The NPC is offering an add on to that mission, not trying to convince them to do something else. There's absolutely no stakes here at all. They are going on the mission, regardless of the NPC. If they say no to the NPC, nothing happens. They still go on their mission and nothing really changes.

For mechanics to be involved, there should be stakes of some sort involved. Otherwise, it's no different than a combat where there is zero chance of the baddies doing any real damage to the PC's. Just write it off and move on.
 

pemerton

Legend
If we are also using the dice to make the decisions, then why are we bothering to include players?
Casting lots to resolve a disagreement among a group is not a thing that I or my group (or Luke Crane) invented. And using dice to establish parameters for choice, as part of playing a game, is not a new thing either. And in the context of RPGing, it's actually pretty standard.

I know you're not talking only about this particular aspect of social mechanics, but that was the context in which [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] made his post that you responded to.

it looks like windmills and not real positions you're tilting against
You must have missed [MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION]'s 5-point reiteration of his reasons for agreeing with [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] that the technique I described is "worse than awful". And Lanefan's reiteration of his contention about the technique I described, although on different grounds from billd91's.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Actually, I'll temper my position a little bit: if I disagree with another player and we can't find a compromise, then I might very well agree to each making a Persuasion check to determine "which character manages to persuade the other."

Which, topologically*, is identical to @iserith's great advice about pvp: the way you resolve pvp is by letting the target of any action narrate the outcome. I, as the target of an attack or spell or social skill, may agree to forego my right to narrate and instead be held to the result of the dice roll.

But that's different from the DM saying, "Somebody else made a Persuade roll against you and succeeded, therefore your character has to do what they say. Please roleplay that."

*Yes, I'm using 'topological' metaphorically.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Actually, I'll temper my position a little bit: if I disagree with another player and we can't find a compromise, then I might very well agree to each making a Persuasion check to determine "which character manages to persuade the other."

That would also probably be the last time I played with that person. I'm a proponent of "Yes, and..." I'm going to find a reason for my character to go along that makes sense. If for some reason I can't do that, then something is terribly wrong with the table dynamic and I need to get out of there.

Luckily, since everyone else at my table is also a proponent of the aforementioned approach, this never comes up.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I don't particularly see the issue with using a game mechanic for player (character) resolution. This goes back to the entire point of the Social Contract: participant CONSENT. From everything that [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] described and overviewed, the players consented to this mechanic as a means of "conflict" resolution.
 

pemerton

Legend
pemerton said:
A system which is more than 75% of all recorded plays and about 80% of sales, worldwide, in the RPG marketspace. If one is going to pick a system to be the exemplar, it's the best choice.
There's no disputing the figures, but on the other hand this is a thread in General RPG. If we have to frame all our discussion, examples, analysis etc through that one system, what's even the point of having a non-D&D sub-forum?

And to follow on with a clarification: I know that you have experience across a range of non-D&D RPGs, and are bringing that to bear in this discussion. It's the seeminglykl relentless treatment of D&D as not just dominant in the market, but normatively determinative of proper and legitimate RPGing, that I find a bit frustrating.

there are two major constituencies (and a handful more minor ones), and the workable varies between them:
1) groups who are largely strangers or casual acquaintances, usually playing in public venues.
2) groups who are long term friends, usually playing at someone's home.

They react differently. The tools in BW work great with group 1.

They're not needed much in group 2.
The play examples I referred to involved an instance of group 2 (my friends and I playing in someone's home). I get the impression that Luke Crane's own experiences with BW probably involve a lot of play with friends also. (I don't know the guy or anything, but that's how his examples and advice seem to read.)

But I find even friends, when they are inhabiting their PCs, can get into disagreements about what to do next that are hard to resolve.

That said, I agree with you that different tables will want to do things differently. [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] prefers to let the debate continue as long as it takes to resolve without mechanical mediation; I don't (and it sounds like you don't either).

In the context of this thread, what I was trying to do with my post was show how social mechanics can work in practice, in a way that is consistent with player agency (just like casting lots would be), reinforces the connection between the PCs as they are in the fiction and the outcome of the debate at the table (which is something [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] especially has emphasised as important to him), and serves two practically useful purposes - (1) keeping play moving while (2) allowing the PCs to be less of a hive-mind rather than more of one.

I always establish rule zero - staying together is **their job**.
In systems that favour party play (D&D and Traveller are both A-grade examples of this), the players in my games understand that they have to make compromises etc to stay together. But that doesn't stop them having PCs with different and sometimes even opposing goals and ideals. (If they didn't, there would be no need to compromise!)

it seems that mechanical resolution in this case is "squib" (if by that you mean intentionally subdue) their roleplaying.

The "we both disagree and we are both stubborn **is** a roleplaying in-character issue that deserves an in character resolution. It has consequences to "go to far" and the characters need to get their "why do i stay" decisions made.

Shifting those consequenes under the "mechanics check" is cutting their decisions short **maybe**.
When I say they don't have to squib, what I mean is that they don't have to forsake their ideals or concede that another PC's goal is the correct one. Rather, the resolution at the table corresponds, in the fiction, to a compromise - "OK, we'll go your way first before we do my thing."

Compromise is always plagued by a first-mover problem: even if both parties can see that a compromise is required, each has an incentive to hold out and let the other be the first-mover (who thereby risks yielding more than the hold-out). In real life, people overcome the first-mover problem all the time through a mixture of social cues, pratcial imperatives ("I haven't got all day, so let's just get on with it!"), etc. At the table I think these cues aren't necessarily present - the same featues of RPGing that make it much easier for players to be brave with their PCs than it is to be brave in real life make it easier to hold-out than in real life.

The mechanics help deal with this.

What happens next time when the check fails or is inconclusive? What happens when the course **rolled** proves harder, at what point do the characters get to think again instead of following rolls
The character- and really, in this context, we're talking about the player - can always think again. No one's mind has been changed about what's important and what's not - it's a decision that's been taken, not a conversion that's occurred.

Burning Wheel has formal rules that govern the way in which a Duel of Wits is binding, and how the outcome may be challenged. The ad hoc systems I've used in 4e and Classic Traveller - being ad hoc - don't have formal rules. The answer to the question "WHen is it OK to go back on an agreement?" is the same in this context as in any other - ie it depends.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
That would also probably be the last time I played with that person. I'm a proponent of "Yes, and..." I'm going to find a reason for my character to go along that makes sense. If for some reason I can't do that, then something is terribly wrong with the table dynamic and I need to get out of there.

Luckily, since everyone else at my table is also a proponent of the aforementioned approach, this never comes up.

Yeah, I've never seen the situation arise, and I wouldn't suggest it. But I find your reaction...extreme.

Just because somebody said, "Ok, I have an idea. Let's both roll Persuasion and see which character makes a better argument..." you would never play with them again?
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Yeah, I've never seen the situation arise, and I wouldn't suggest it. But I find your reaction...extreme.

Just because somebody said, "Ok, I have an idea. Let's both roll Persuasion and see which character makes a better argument..." you would never play with them again?

It's not the proposal to go to the mechanics, but rather that we couldn't come to an agreement in the first place. It means either he or she or I could not figure out a way to cooperate short of going to mechanics. That sounds like a problem between the player and me, so I'd rather just play in another game.

I was in a game about a year ago and there was a player who would simply not agree to anything without a big debate wherein he could find no reason for his character to agree to any proposal other players would make. You know, because "that's what my character would do." It was so crazy that I would state the opposite of what I wanted so that he'd take the position I ultimately wanted. I had been in a couple one shots prior to that time where he would do the same. I stopped playing alongside him altogether. I come to play, not to debate about playing.
 

5ekyu

Hero
But, why would you roll dice here? The PC's are going on a mission. The NPC is offering an add on to that mission, not trying to convince them to do something else. There's absolutely no stakes here at all. They are going on the mission, regardless of the NPC. If they say no to the NPC, nothing happens. They still go on their mission and nothing really changes.

For mechanics to be involved, there should be stakes of some sort involved. Otherwise, it's no different than a combat where there is zero chance of the baddies doing any real damage to the PC's. Just write it off and move on.
"Nothing really changes?"

Huh?

If the PCs accept, they take on an obligation, a secondary mission. Success or failure is now success or failure of their own outting but of that other job, their other employer.

Thats the obvious part.

Add to that, accept and get help with access to crew for the missions, dont and have more time loss and crew more determined by their somewhat more limited searches.

Add to that, easier better sell of goods afterward, better advancing relationship with authorities, good PR from the follow-up as notifications and funerals, etc etc etc and even not having the second recovery mission sent out while they salvage which would have led to... Complications.

See, to me, and to my players, that decision was a big one, one they saw as very important and that would impact the mission they were planning in the before, during and after in very pragmatic measurable ways (ignoring completely the personal angles.)

No one thought there were "absolutely no stakes here at all" or that the choices they made would not have impact.

Sometimes it seems some RPGers invested in the philosophy of rpg mechanics and "setting stakes" see things on a very selective scale, not necessarily seeing it as "immediate loss" = "stakes" but not too far off from it and also sometimes seeing it as "declared stakes" sometimes describes as the players agree abc is at stake before they roll...

But in my experiences over the years with gamers not as invested in the philosophy of rpg mechanics, decision point like i referred to are seen as big decisions with likely significant consequences...and whether or not the characters accept or decline, are convinced or not, or if the players have choices or not are actually major stakes.

But rounding the corner backto the OP... What were the stakes for the duke "save my daughter" as far as pcs concerned, in an objective sense?

Duke wants his daughter saved, will not be happy. Is that of any value for the pcs? Do they care? Wont he send others if they say no, just like my official might have?

Why would "duke's daughter" objective be valid stakes for rolling to convince pcs to go but "bring out our dead" not be - especially in a setting where say ressurections may be possible?

Hint: Some of the dead brought back will wind up ressurected... without that having been expressly "staked out" for the heroes so, actually, more than one "life or death" is at stake in my example.
 

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