D&D Has the Biggest Playerbase, So Why is it the Hardest for 3rd Party to Market Too?

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Its because at the tie it was more or less the only available adventure unless you went 3pp which is the point of this thread. hell I have run more 3pp adventures than the WotC ones as I find the Quests of Doom ones better for actually completing them or the older 32 page B/X series are a "long" module to me.

Hasn't WoT shifted more towards level 1-10 with recent AP's? I have not paid much attention to anything after OoTA and barely looked at my copies of SKT and ToA due tio RL and the last 6 months. Still using NPCs, spells etc from PoTA when we play (currently on hiatus so not actually paying).
SKT is 1-10 (mainly 6-10, 1-5 has shirt coverage in one chapter if you don't come from Phandelver), TftYP is 1-15 (if you play through as an ad hoc AP), and ToA is 1-11, so yes, well within what people are playing in a year. By lowering the covered level range, SKT and ToA gave breathing room for a wider array of side elements as well
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
SKT is 1-10 (mainly 6-10, 1-5 has shirt coverage in one chapter if you don't come from Phandelver), TftYP is 1-15 (if you play through as an ad hoc AP), and ToA is 1-11, so yes, well within what people are playing in a year. By lowering the covered level range, SKT and ToA gave breathing room for a wider array of side elements as well

I'm fine with it the level 1-20 AP that were done years ago tend to be very good early on and turn into a slog later. I would truncate them anyway. Might have to find an online group for ToA I want to play (not DM) that one.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
If what WotC said in the recent article about how they have 12-15 million players in NA is true, then they are way more massive then what 3rd party success would lead one too believe. On a lot of forums outside of EnWorld (and sometimes, even on EnWorld), 3rd party material is always treated as a last resort and very rarely pulled from. After all, when you have a playerbase of 12-15 million, those 100-500 backers on Kickstarter suddenly don't seem like so many. Even if each backer represents a full party of 5 eagers players, that's still less than 1% of the D&D market.

Thoughts?

Obviously there are a lot of reasons. A few possibilities.

The amount of time people have to play vs. how many things are available.

Distribution - kickstarter/internet is one thing, being in every game shop and other outlets another.

3rd party products often cater to a specific play-style or approach. They are frequently more of a niche product.

D&D and 5e in particular are very friendly to homebrew content, much like OD&D and AD&D were.

A 3rd party product might not be approved by the DM, the players, or both.

The quality of WotC is a known quantity. This includes things like game balance, type of story, content of story (and content that won't be in their products), etc.

Expansion material has always had a much lower usage rate. Not just sales of adventures, but publications like Dragon and Dungeon magazine when they were both print magazines. The core books sell many times more copies than the WotC adventure paths. 3rd party sales will almost never be more than a percentage of WotC sales. So a WotC adventure path might sell x copies, and a 3rd party AP would sell a percentage of what they'd sell.

Note that to this last point, Pathfinder is an outlier. Although the reality is, there wasn't a point where you could compare (if you could get numbers), a WotC 3.5e adventure released in the same month of a Pathfinder adventure. It was more a question of whether they liked WotC older or newer game system better.

The WotC sales also reflect a fair amount of turnover. That is, me playing for 35+ years is less common than somebody that plays for 4 years at college and then moves on. New players need the core books, and every year there are more adventures available. So new players have more material to "catch up" on before considering 3rd party materials.

The business model is different. 3rd party releases don't need to sell millions of copies to be viable. WotC has much higher overhead, and must remain a valuable asset to an even larger company. So 3rd party releases don't have to spend as much on marketing, distribution, etc. As long as they are meeting their sales goals, they are a success, and can cater to a niche market if they want to. Want to make a campaign setting of entirely reptilian/dinosaurian races? Go for it, it only has to appeal to a small group.

I love the stuff we do in our campaign, and I'm happy to share, and might even publish some of it eventually. But I'm not attempting to cater to a mass market. In most cases, the appeal of the material produced really is much narrower than that of the WotC materials.

Now I can also envision a scenario where 3rd party stuff sells nearly as well as a WotC release. By licensing their settings to the original setting creators (who can also bring in some of the setting's most popular contributors). For example, instead of WotC producing an updated Forgotten Realms campaign setting, have Ed Greenwood and friends do it instead - and make it official. That is, WotC will only publish materials that work with the Greenwood published materials, and vice versa. A solid licensing agreement for Dark Sun, Eberron, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, etc. would allow for a huge increase in 3rd party materials that would probably sell in large quantities.

This approach has already been taken by Sophisticated Games/Cubicle 7 an Adventures in Middle Earth. Note that it's not really seen as D&D supplements, but it's own game. Some settings could be produced in a similar manner, with heavily reworked rules, and others could simply be a supplement to the D&D rules.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
A producer (1st party) supplies a product to a customer (2nd party) and can use components from another supplier (3rd party).
 

A producer (1st party) supplies a product to a customer (2nd party) and can use components from another supplier (3rd party).

That is not how it works. WotC is first party when making their own products. Second party is those companies who worked for WotC to make the first couple of adventures. Third party is those companies working independently of WotC.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
That is not how it works. WotC is first party when making their own products. Second party is those companies who worked for WotC to make the first couple of adventures. Third party is those companies working independently of WotC.

I literally quoted the legal definition right from the book, word for word. The second party is the customer. That's what that phrase means. It has a real definition, and that's the definition.
 
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I literally quoted the legal indention right from the book, word for word. The second party is the customer. That's what that phrase means. It has a real definition, and that's the definition.

What book?

In the video game world, second party is a company who makes software under contract for a hardware maker's console. Same thing in other professional fields.

Hoard of the Dragon Queen was a Second Party product because it was made under contract for WotC.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
What book?

In the video game world, second party is a company who makes software under contract for a hardware maker's console. Same thing in other professional fields.

Hoard of the Dragon Queen was a Second Party product because it was made under contract for WotC.
Mistwell is an actual lawyer, so one presumes he means a legal book of some sort.
 


Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
What book?

This one happened to be an old bar study book from Barbri, but I imagine they got it from something like Black's Law Dictionary or a hornbook on contracts or sales laws.

In the video game world, second party is a company who makes software under contract for a hardware maker's console. Same thing in other professional fields.

Hoard of the Dragon Queen was a Second Party product because it was made under contract for WotC.

That's not what second party means, legally speaking. If you have a quote from some place that shows different, I am willing to listen. It's referring to the parties to a contract - the first party being the seller, the second party being the buyer. A third party is an entity that is neither the buyer nor the seller but who is, typically, engaged by the seller in some way to supply part of the thing being sold. Even if the part is all the text, the other part is the brand intellectual property from the first party, for example. There can also be a third party beneficiary to a contract who are more closely aligned to the position of a buyer, but now we're really getting into esoteric stuff.
 
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