D&D Has the Biggest Playerbase, So Why is it the Hardest for 3rd Party to Market Too?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yup.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

This one happened to be an old bar study book from Barbri, but I imagine they got it from something like Black's Law Dictionary or a hornbook on contracts or sales laws.



That's not what second party means, legally speaking. If you have a quote from some place that shows different, I am willing to listen. It's referring to the parties to a contract - the first party being the seller, the second party being the buyer. A third party is an entity that is neither the buyer nor the seller but who is, typically, engaged by the seller in some way to supply part of the thing being sold. Even if the part is all the text, the other part is the brand intellectual property from the first party, for example. There can also be a third party beneficiary to a contract who are more closely aligned to the position of a buyer, but now we're really getting into esoteric stuff.

What first party, second party and third party mean in law/court documents is not the same as what they mean in other industries.

Here is a link that explains the difference in the video game industry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_developer

And here is one that shows the difference in the data sharing market:

http://www.knowonlineadvertising.com/what-is-first-party-second-party-and-third-party-data/

I am sure there are others as well.

 

[Raif]

What first party, second party and third party mean in law/court documents is not the same as what they mean in other industries.

Here is a link that explains the difference in the video game industry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_developer

And here is one that shows the difference in the data sharing market:

http://www.knowonlineadvertising.com/what-is-first-party-second-party-and-third-party-data/

I am sure there are others as well.

Right there in your own "definition" from Wikipedia:

Second-party developer is a colloquial term often used by gaming enthusiasts and media....

A colloquial term is equivalent to slang, it means language used in common discourse, non-formal. And the continuing sentence is then shown that it is by gamers and the media, meaning it's a coined term.

In this discussion, 2nd party most definitely means the consumer as it's talking about why 3rd parties are not having success marketing their goods in D&D. Who is the 3rd party marketing to? 2nd party as they are the ones directly purchasing from the creators of D&D (the 1st party).

For the record Wikipedia, while a great common resource, is not an acceptable form of citation in discourse as an actual definition. It's a community sourced and edited platform and is considered a tertiary source.

From Wikipeda itself:

As with all encyclopedias, Wikipedia is a tertiary source and is rarely appropriate as a citation for academic, business, or journalistic research. The aim of such research is to uncover comprehensive and accurate information, which is located in primary sources and secondary sources.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What first party, second party and third party mean in law/court documents is not the same as what they mean in other industries.

You mean the contracts that all businesses use?

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Right there in your own "definition" from Wikipedia:


A colloquial term is equivalent to slang, it means language used in common discourse, non-formal. And the continuing sentence is then shown that it is by gamers and the media, meaning it's a coined term.

In this discussion, 2nd party most definitely means the consumer as it's talking about why 3rd parties are not having success marketing their goods in D&D. Who is the 3rd party marketing to? 2nd party as they are the ones directly purchasing from the creators of D&D (the 1st party).

For the record Wikipedia, while a great common resource, is not an acceptable form of citation in discourse as an actual definition. It's a community sourced and edited platform and is considered a tertiary source.

From Wikipeda itself:

Strawman. A good chunk of what is the English language started out as colloquial or slang before being made official by those mysterious people in their Ivory Towers.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

You mean the contracts that all businesses use?

Ah yes, the wonders of the English language where one word can have many meanings in many different situations, of which party has many beyond the one used by lawyers.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Certainly.

But I’d almost wager* that the sheer volume of contracts incorporating 3rd party clauses- either for suppliers or beneficiaries- greatly outnumbers the colloquial uses, simply because they’re used in almost every field of business and at all levels therein. They’re common enough that they’re part of the earlier topics in 1st year Contracts courses.

(I also wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the phrase “3rd party” has its origins in legalese.)

And in this context, it’s pretty clear that we are using the contractual form. They are publishers, not party to the original contracts or production of goods, with permission to supply compatible products to the purchasers of the original, core product, as long as they conform to the licensing agreements in place.



* I’m not a gambling man, as a rule

 

[Raif]

Edit - nevermind, not worth

 

[pemerton]

And in this context, it’s pretty clear that we are using the contractual form. They are publishers, not party to the original contracts or production of goods, with permission to supply compatible products to the purchasers of the original, core product, as long as they conform to the licensing agreements in place.

I've always assumed that "3rd party" here means 3rd party vis-a-vis the relationship between WotC and the D&D player. The italicised relationship isn't really a contractual one - most D&D players don't enter into contracts of purchase with WotC - but is some sort of more amorphous commercially significant relationship between publisher and reader/user.

 

[Hussar]

You mean the contracts that all businesses use?

How are we discussing contract law though? No one is entering into a contract.

Well, I suppose, since using the OGL is a thing, you could make the argument that it's a contract law issue, but, the colloquial use is certainly well established in gaming. Paizo, when it produced Dungeon and Dragon magazines, were typically referred to as a second party publisher since they were under direct contract with WotC and were not bound by the OGL. 3rd party, AFAIK, in these conversations, always refers to OGL producers.

The consumer has never, ever, been part of these conversations since the consumer is always the same - D&D gamers. Even the acronym, 3PP has the word PUBLISHER right in the name. It's just that currently, with 5e, there are virtually no 2pp's on the market.

What a very strange argument. 3pp refers to publishers, 2pp have always (in gaming conversations anyway) referred to publishers and of course 1pp means WotC or whatever company has created its own OGL (and thus 2pp and 3pp's) for its game.

Is this really in question?