Do you believe we are alone in the universe?

The universe is far, far, far too big and ancient a place to reasonably rule out life elsewhere. Even if the galaxy is currently lacking intelligent life other than our own (and I'm not convinced it is - our expectations of what intelligent life should be doing with itself is, obviously, prejudiced toward our own ideals), I don't think it was nor will be. I'm also much more optimistic about FTL. :)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Well, at the moment we can conclusively rule out FTL travel.

Just as we once conclusively ruled that the Sun revolved around the Earth, sure.

Again, we have to be completley wrong in our understanding of physics for that to be true.

This is false. We just have to have an incomplete understanding is all. And we do have an incomplete understanding.

IOW, magic.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. So sure, I guess you can call tech magic if you like.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Why, then, do we assume that any other intelligent life is willing to share, especially if the rate of technology progress is not uniform of doesn't have discontinuities.

Is *everything* you do about money? No? In fact, lots of things you do are about things other than your personal resources, right?

Doesn't that answer the question? Intelligence implies the ability to do things that aren't all about resource allocation.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
And how many times has that happened in just the last 100 years?

Rarely.

No, hear me out - since the general acceptance of the scientific method, rare indeed has been the discovery that *invalidates* what we previously knew. New science generally applies in areas we could not previously see or experiment in, and thereby doesn't actually break our understanding of the universe - it adds to it.

Einstein does not *invalidate* Newton. Einstein applies when things are moving fast, or have great mass. For other things, Einstein reduces to Newton. Quantum mechanics does not *invalidate* classical mechanics - quantum mechanics applies in the realm of the very small, while classical applies in the realms of human-sized things, and if you apply QM to everyday objects, they continue to behave like everyday objects.

FTL travel has a major problem. FTL travel enables time travel. That breaks causality. And, aside from silliness like allowing you to be born before you are conceived, a break in causality allows for the creation of perpetual motion machines - infinite energy output from finite energy input. And that that breaks the laws of thermodynamics. FTL looks to *invalidate* the laws of thermodynamics - unless there's some limitation to FTL that means it doesn't apply on the time, mass, or distance scales we currently observe.

I won't claim it is impossible. But, while the race doesn't *always* go to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, that's the way to bet.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Just as we once conclusively ruled that the Sun revolved around the Earth, sure.

As I said earlier, this is just a conversation/ending nothing statement.

Sure. By definition, we can’t know anything for certain ever.

So what? We talk using what we know, or we all just stop talking about anything ever. What’s the fun in that?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
As I said earlier, this is just a conversation/ending nothing statement.

Sure. By definition, we can’t know anything for certain ever.

So what? We talk using what we know, or we all just stop talking about anything ever. What’s the fun in that?

It's fine to talk using what we know, but when we are using it to stop reasonable speculation about the future tech in a thread that's about speculation about future tech, that's not very fun, either. :)
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Rarely.

No, hear me out - since the general acceptance of the scientific method, rare indeed has been the discovery that *invalidates* what we previously knew. New science generally applies in areas we could not previously see or experiment in, and thereby doesn't actually break our understanding of the universe - it adds to it.

Einstein does not *invalidate* Newton. Einstein applies when things are moving fast, or have great mass. For other things, Einstein reduces to Newton. Quantum mechanics does not *invalidate* classical mechanics - quantum mechanics applies in the realm of the very small, while classical applies in the realms of human-sized things, and if you apply QM to everyday objects, they continue to behave like everyday objects.

FTL travel has a major problem. FTL travel enables time travel. That breaks causality. And, aside from silliness like allowing you to be born before you are conceived, a break in causality allows for the creation of perpetual motion machines - infinite energy output from finite energy input. And that that breaks the laws of thermodynamics. FTL looks to *invalidate* the laws of thermodynamics - unless there's some limitation to FTL that means it doesn't apply on the time, mass, or distance scales we currently observe.

I won't claim it is impossible. But, while the race doesn't *always* go to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, that's the way to bet.
That's an interesting downplay of the revolution enabled by relativity. Heck, this conversation is made possible by relativity. Newtonian mechanics remain a good approximation of many low speed effects, but come on, relativety was a massive ganechanger.

And yet, relativity still has problems, much like Newtonian physics did -- we can't align everything. This isn't to say that we don't have C as a very strong limit with excellent predictive and useful value, but G does a lot of good work, too, but relativity shows that's variable on things we didn't understand when it was first derived.

Do I think FTL is likely? No, because we do have a good set of observations that show C is insurpassible. But, then, in 1900 we didn't really think about nuclear power, either. It's hubris to believe we really know that much.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
That's an interesting downplay of the revolution enabled by relativity. Heck, this conversation is made possible by relativity. Newtonian mechanics remain a good approximation of many low speed effects

Note that "low speed effects" means "every speed generated by humankind outside of a particle accelerator".

but come on, relativety was a massive ganechanger.

You were referring to new science of the form, "everything we know is wrong". My point is that that doesn't really happen. In modern science, the things we know... we know. We observe them up, down, and crossways. We measure and remeasure and confirm. New science can't change what we have already seen! Any new understanding of the universe must be consistent with old understanding. F'rex: We have observed gravity's scaling with the square of distance on the scale of mountains to the scale of galactic clusters. Any new idea of gravity must be consistent with those observations, or the new idea of gravity is clearly wrong.

New things in science don't say, "You were wrong." They say, "Oh, and also this..." New science adds to old, it does not replace the old.

So, any form of FTL that we get must still be consistent with everything else we have ever observed. And that puts some very restrictive boundaries on it if it does exist.

... but G does a lot of good work, too, but relativity shows that's variable on things we didn't understand when it was first derived.

You are being way too vague here. In general, determining a value for G with greater than 0.1% precision has proven difficult. But that *IS NOT* the same as saying it is variable on things we didn't understand. Claims that G varies are, as yet, entirely speculative. G has been hard to nail down, and ego tends to make us speculate that this is the fault of G, rather than a fault with our experiments to measure it.

It's hubris to believe we really know that much.

"that much" isn't really all that much, though. We don't need to know much to make FTL travel a highly questionable proposition.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Note that "low speed effects" means "every speed generated by humankind outside of a particle accelerator".
I'll let the GPS guys they can stop with the relativistic corrects, yeah?

Then there's refraction across different media, theory directly derived from relativity concepts. Or that transistor width is constrained by quantim tunneling effects, which are also based in relativity and not Newtonian physics.


You were referring to new science of the form, "everything we know is wrong". My point is that that doesn't really happen. In modern science, the things we know... we know. We observe them up, down, and crossways. We measure and remeasure and confirm. New science can't change what we have already seen! Any new understanding of the universe must be consistent with old understanding. F'rex: We have observed gravity's scaling with the square of distance on the scale of mountains to the scale of galactic clusters. Any new idea of gravity must be consistent with those observations, or the new idea of gravity is clearly wrong.

New things in science don't say, "You were wrong." They say, "Oh, and also this..." New science adds to old, it does not replace the old.

So, any form of FTL that we get must still be consistent with everything else we have ever observed. And that puts some very restrictive boundaries on it if it does exist.
This is a subtle misrepresentation. Firstly, I'm discussing theory and models, not observations. The switch to pretend I'm talking about observations is a bit disappointing. Of course a new theory has to continue to explain our observations. This is trivial, and frankly insulting that you'd even attempt to lecture that obsevations already made don't change.

Secondly, you slyly elide the fact that observations are by no means comprehensive. Just like Newton observed falling apples (apocryphally) but could not detect relativistic effects on falling apples doesn't mean that this missed bit didn't lead to nuclear bombs. What we observe is incomplete.

Finally, restrictive boundaries have always existed. A bomb that creates short-lived minature suns wasn't contemplated during Newton's time -- there were some restrictve boundaries in place. But a new theory leading to new observations, consistent with old, led to a moving of boundaries.

The characteristic of believing you're at the end of history, scientific or otherwise, is evergreen. Ironically.

You are being way too vague here. In general, determining a value for G with greater than 0.1% precision has proven difficult. But that *IS NOT* the same as saying it is variable on things we didn't understand. Claims that G varies are, as yet, entirely speculative. G has been hard to nail down, and ego tends to make us speculate that this is the fault of G, rather than a fault with our experiments to measure it.
We have to experiment to determine the value of G, which is not directly measurable but instead is the constant we've invented to make our math balance, because we have no theory to explain it. G usn't a theoretical value we're confirming, it's a value we have to experiment to find out how big it should be (and what units we need to assign it) to balance an equation. Same with any other constant we use to balance our maths. The habit is to forget these represent failures of understanding because they're so damn useful.

[Quite]
"that much" isn't really all that much, though. We don't need to know much to make FTL travel a highly questionable proposition.[/QUOTE]

Of course it's questionable. I've said that multiple times, including in the post you just quoted. (You elected to snip that bit, I suppose so you could chastise me?) Questionable is what science is about. I just don't believe we're at the end of history for science. I rationally accept we could be, but it seems we've been too oft proven wrong on that account to have faith.
 


Shasarak

Banned
Banned
This does change the understanding of physics.

I do find it ironic that there is a claim that we can not travel faster then light when we also do not understand why there is so much gravity around to hold everything together and why there is so much energy around that it is expanding space instead of that same gravity crunching it.

So if gravity can pull faster then light and space can expand faster then light but at the same time nothing can move faster then light.
 

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