Two New Settings For D&D This Year

Remathilis said:

otherwise Athas is just another D&D setting

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TheSword said:

I don’t understand are you saying that Defilers and Preservers wasn’t a valid book? The whole range came out over 5 years for AD&D. The Grey and the Black were pretty well established in the lore - particularly the entrapment and blocking - Rikus is trapped in the grey, Rajaat was trapped in the black. The links with the inner planes and the remoteness of the outer planes all of these things were well established. The isolations seems to fit the setting extremely well so I really don’t understand your issues.

Back in 2nd edition, planescape wasn’t released until 1994 three years after Darksun so I’m not surprised that the planes weren’t a big deal in the Dark sun books. After Planescape there was a need to codify where Athas sat in the cosmology hence Preservers and Defilers coming out in 1996.

Regarding planar sources, Sadira drew her energy from the sun, it doesn’t seem unreasonable for necromancers to draw energy from the Grey.

I really like the mechanic in D&P where it is difficult but not impossible to travel out. It fits the theme, and allows for isolated exceptions. At the same time it prevents a portals to the elemental plane of water solving all the worlds problems. There has to be an explanation for why supremely powerful wizard/psionicists couldn’t do that. D&P gave us that answer.

Incidentally Defilers and Preservers was released before Mindlords, Psionic Artefacts, all the 3rd ed Paizo conversions stuff and the two 4th edition books, so it’s hardly the end of the range. There is a lot more life in Dark Sun in my opinion.

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Parmandur said:

A Johnny Come Lately retcon can, itself, be retconned with no shame. The 4E material rolled back a lot of latter day Dark Sun, and doubtless 5E will do aimilar. For example, see the presence of the Arhasian Half-Fiant in Faerun alongside a Tal'Dorei Goliath in recent times.

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TheSword said:

So you’re comfortable with Athas being accessible to all and sundry as normal with simple plane shifting magic?

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Paul Farquhar said:

I'm in favour of Athas remaining a D&D setting. It has content that can be backported or used in homebrew settings, it has story and creature lore overlaps with other settings, historically it has always been a D&D setting, and commercially the D&D brand is a huge advantage.

On the other hand: nothing.

I'm quite happy with it being considered part of the D&D multiverse, but hard to reach and, with magic dying, even harder to leave.

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Remathilis said:

Dark Sun though was the ultimate example of a setting breaking the core rules to fit its tropes. The 2e era setting often resembled D&D In Name Only, with everything from races to classes to ability scores and xp tables changed. That kind of radical alteration to the core game wouldn't work under WotC's current design paradigm. There is no way WotC would sell a setting that that used 33%-50% of the core rules as is and nearly none of the supplemental material. They want a setting that would sell PHBs, not piece-meal replace them.

That ultimately puts the setting into a kind of limbo between wanting to be a D&D setting and wanting to be this radical departure from it. If it wants to be a D&D setting, it needs to accept more of the D&D tropes and options like the 4e version of the setting did (that includes finding homes for every class and most races). If it wants to emulate the 2e version and have radically different classes and races than the PHB, then it needs its own PHB (and that would come in the form of a spin-off game).

That really holds true for any setting, IMHO. Settings should flavor the core D&D setting, not replace or radically alter it. Forgotten Realms is vanilla D&D, while Dragonlance should be heroic/romantic fantasy, Greyhawk pulp, Eberron pulp/noir/magitech, Ravenloft gothic horror, Birthright political intrigue/dominion, and Dark Sun post-apocalyptic pulp. The PHB should be valid (with some minor changes required for flavor) in all of them. A new player should be able to use just his PHB and make a viable character with some small adjustments (such as in the areas of subraces, equipment or backgrounds). Options should be adapted when possible (half-orcs = calibans, dragonborn = dray) or if an option isn't available, its replaced with another equal option (no gnomes, but here are muls on Athas; all halflings must take the kender subrace on Krynn). Additional options (psionics, artificers, new races, etc) should be balanced enough that if a DM wants to use them in another setting (be it his homebrewed version of the Realms with warforged and psionics or a complete new setting) they are usable without imbalance to the game. Settings that cannot abide those rules should either be ditched or farmed out to 3pp as stand-alone games.

Ultimately, I actually think the July product we'll see might be a UA-style primer that tests fan reaction to updating those settings to 5e. How will fans react to Athasian paladins, Krynnish warlocks, Oerthian dragonborn, etc. Feedback gathered will go in the product coming next year. It might be the best way to take the fans temperature for how much they can make settings conform to the Core Rules and how much they can make the Core Rules conform to the settings...

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TheSword said:

So you’re comfortable with Athas being accessible to all and sundry as normal with simple plane shifting magic?

Click to expand...

Remathilis said:

Dark Sun though was the ultimate example of a setting breaking the core rules to fit its tropes. The 2e era setting often resembled D&D In Name Only, with everything from races to classes to ability scores and xp tables changed. That kind of radical alteration to the core game wouldn't work under WotC's current design paradigm. There is no way WotC would sell a setting that that used 33%-50% of the core rules as is and nearly none of the supplemental material. They want a setting that would sell PHBs, not piece-meal replace them.

That ultimately puts the setting into a kind of limbo between wanting to be a D&D setting and wanting to be this radical departure from it. If it wants to be a D&D setting, it needs to accept more of the D&D tropes and options like the 4e version of the setting did (that includes finding homes for every class and most races). If it wants to emulate the 2e version and have radically different classes and races than the PHB, then it needs its own PHB (and that would come in the form of a spin-off game).

That really holds true for any setting, IMHO. Settings should flavor the core D&D setting, not replace or radically alter it. Forgotten Realms is vanilla D&D, while Dragonlance should be heroic/romantic fantasy, Greyhawk pulp, Eberron pulp/noir/magitech, Ravenloft gothic horror, Birthright political intrigue/dominion, and Dark Sun post-apocalyptic pulp. The PHB should be valid (with some minor changes required for flavor) in all of them. A new player should be able to use just his PHB and make a viable character with some small adjustments (such as in the areas of subraces, equipment or backgrounds). Options should be adapted when possible (half-orcs = calibans, dragonborn = dray) or if an option isn't available, its replaced with another equal option (no gnomes, but here are muls on Athas; all halflings must take the kender subrace on Krynn). Additional options (psionics, artificers, new races, etc) should be balanced enough that if a DM wants to use them in another setting (be it his homebrewed version of the Realms with warforged and psionics or a complete new setting) they are usable without imbalance to the game. Settings that cannot abide those rules should either be ditched or farmed out to 3pp as stand-alone games.

Ultimately, I actually think the July product we'll see might be a UA-style primer that tests fan reaction to updating those settings to 5e. How will fans react to Athasian paladins, Krynnish warlocks, Oerthian dragonborn, etc. Feedback gathered will go in the product coming next year. It might be the best way to take the fans temperature for how much they can make settings conform to the Core Rules and how much they can make the Core Rules conform to the settings...

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Parmandur said:

Perfectly comfortable, which is handy, because that is what will be happening moving forwards, it seems.

Note that there is a major distinction between "accessible" and "easily accessible." You can have a story telling about events in 12th century Mexico, that are not easily accessible to 12th century European characters in another story. Doesn't mean they take place in different universes.

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