D&D 4E Revised 4E Wizard Class with Freeform Spellcasting System

Garthanos · Jun 10, 2018

How would you bring Come and Get it into your meta
- maneuvers system [MENTION=326]Upper_Krust[/MENTION]

Garthanos · Jun 10, 2018

AbdulAlhazred said:
Its hard to give a power enough damage to make this work in a way that is similar to old school SOD effects.

I know what that tells me...

Upper_Krust · Jun 10, 2018

AbdulAlhazred said:
Right, but I think that what the solution proposed in this and the other thread does is simply take the choices away entirely! I mean, what choices do you have here? To only use certain specific damage types and effects to get a rather hefty increase in damage? TBH I'd be pretty darn hard pressed not to just toss around lightning and/or thunder for 2 extra points per die of added damage (or 3 if you can pare it down to one or the other). Yes, I know, I will fight Shambling Mounds to the end of time

Lets look at the level 1 wizard powers from PHB1:

Okey dokey, lets take a look. Haven't really had my head in an RPG book for a while but what the heck right, its like riding a bike...I hope.

Cloud of Daggers - Nope, that would require a Paragon Tier delivery system, and even then the result would be different, though I will grant that the difference would probably be largely immaterial in play.

Could easily add a 1 square area of effect at Heroic Tier (as opposed to the Burst 1 effect in the Paragon Tier).

Magic Missile - Not precisely reproducible in its post-Essentials form, not even close in its pre-Essentials form. There's simply nothing like 'can be used as an RBA' possible in the 2 page wizard.

What part of this cannot be reproduced?

Ray of Frost - Slowed is only available in (save ends) flavor, so this is pretty close to available. I can't feel too sad about simplifying durations to be honest, though I think it may be a bit OP with save ends.

Ray +1 dice, Slowed, -1 dice.

So 1 dice (At will), +1 Ray, -1 slowed = 1d6 + slowed.

Scorching Burst - Ranges are a bit simplified, which I think is a bit of a shame tactically, but in some ways not really a big loss. This is the one at-will which is essentially reproducible. I would note that it was pretty much universally panned and only ever used in builds which focused on Fire damage, which is pretty much a non-existent optimization in stock 4e.

Probably used less because other powers like Thunderwave and Cloud of Daggers were better because they had damage + effect. ie. they were more powerful than the others to begin with.

Thunderwave - technically not possible by the one-page rules, as you would have to add condition 'slide 3' reducing the damage to 0 dice. I note that again the granularity of the system is too large, as it ignores push.

Its too powerful for an at-will. You could change it so you get Close Blast 3 0d6 + Int Thunder damage and push 3 squares.

At the very least I would suggest there would need to be a list of 'zero cost' add-ons for powers (yes this means every power use would add on something, why not). That would allow for things like push or pull, minor heroic level UEONT conditions, etc. Maybe these should be trade-outs at a sub-1d level, so you have to shorten range to 10 squares, or make an implement vs AC attack, or one of some list of other such things to buy a minor effect. As it stands now you certainly cannot produce EXACTLY any of the PHB1 at-wills, though I think a few of them you can get close enough that nobody would be offended.

I agree. You can reduce damage to zero and still do the bonus dice damage (as in the case of Thunderwave above).

I'd note that there is a distinct lowering of power level here too. The only power you can fully emulate is Scorching Burst, which was basically never used by anyone with any 4e experience due to its weak nature. I note the same issue below with encounter powers.

See under Specialist Wizards on Page 1 of my Revised 4E Wizard Class.

Wizards can CHOOSE less energy types for more damage.

Burning Hands - Already a weak power, this now goes from Blast 5 to Blast 3 (or loses a whole damage die, take your pick). It was already a lemon power...

Unless you specialise in which case you could be dealing up to 2d12 damage instead of 2d6.

Chill Strike - This one simply becomes range 20 and Save Ends instead of UEONT. So its the most doable. It was again a somewhat weak power, though not bad. The switch to Save Ends is maybe not so bad. It also loses a tiny bit of damage, but that's splitting hairs really (average 1 point per hit).

Save ends is a boost. Damage could go up to 2d12 for Specialists.

Force Orb - This was a weird power which can simply be emulated as an area burst one. It is really another of the fairly weak encounter powers which does nothing to aid the wizard's control shtick. I expect the wizard handbook calls it purple or something like that, usable but not recommended. The two page version is no better, though by comparison to other two page options it is relatively OK.

Cheers.

Icy Terrain - This is a really solid control power, at least for original PHB1 wizard encounter powers. Unfortunately two page offers no options to build anything even similar, since it simply leaves out all Zone type effects entirely at heroic and has only movable ones at paragon. To be fair, this could be rectified without a drastic revision I'm sure.

As noted on Page 1 of my document under Missing Options; Difficult Terrain was not included in that version, but as you say its an easy inclusion to the system. Can't remember if I just wanted to keep things to within 2 pages for that draft of the Class.

Ray of Enfeeblement - Again this cannot be precisely recreated, as weakened (save ends) is a -2 die effect and there is no -1 die UEONT version of it. That could be fixed of course...

Could easily work as a 0d6 + Int bonus + weakness

Daily Powers really are where things fall short

Acid Arrow - This one you can approximate as an area burst 1 Acid attack, and just not bother with the fairly uninteresting ongoing 5 damage (I was never a fan of ongoing damage really, it may add some color but tactically its fairly uninteresting, at least in this context).

Could work as (area burst) 1d6 + Int and ongoing 5.

Flaming Sphere - Well, you can do this one, pretty much, due to the fact that the two page wizard oddly provides this one-of-a-kind delivery mechanism as a standard off-the-shelf! I have no idea why that is, except I would assume U_K wanted to be able to emulate all level 1 PHB1 wizard powers... However, we now run into the omission, there's no sustain option at all at heroic!

I could easily add a Heroic Tier Sustain as a Standard Action (just like Sustain as a Minor at Paragon).

Freezing Cloud - There are multiple omissions which make this impossible. There's no option to sustain, there's no option for a zone at all, and there's no option to increase from burst 1 to burst 2. That last is probably trivial to add (cost of one extra die, which would match this power exactly on that front). Sustain simply needs adding, badly, as wizards use it extensively in heroic.

See above.

Sleep - Yeah, you just cannot do this at all with the existing two-page system. It lacks any option for progressive saving effects, helpless isn't there at all, and you cannot create a non-damaging attack power effect. Thus we see that any somewhat outlying power is simply lost, or else significant (and potentially complex and unbalancing) options need to be added to the system.

You could easily duplicate this, dunno why I never had Unconscious there to begin with although that said (IIRC) I think I left it out simply because I thought it was too powerful.

You can have effects without damages.

I will note that from here we really run off the rails. At level 5 you cannot even come close to any of the daily powers, the options available would need to be extended dramatically. This tells me that the contention that all powers are merely a few minor variations on one or two options is simply wrong. You could argue that such things add nothing to the game, but I think very few actual 4e players will agree with you! Again, I think you would need to create a much less combat-centered and tactical game to pull this off!

Bigby's = Variable of the Sphere delivery system
Fireball = Close enough
Stinking Cloud = Only requires a delivery system moved from Paragon Tier - I possibly moved it to begin with for balance issues (can't remember exactly why).
Web = Close-ish, but specifically needs a difficult terrain effect - which (I noted in the document) hadn't been designed yet.

To be perfectly honest. I think if you were to produce a reasonable facsimile of each 4e wizard power in PHB1 you'd require about 15 pages worth of rules! Odd, how that corresponds pretty well with the size of the wizard spell list...

I disagree.

With an extra 1/2 page (or less) we could do absolutely anything. Probably about 3 lines away from doing everything on your above list.

I agree that the effects would be more regularized and probably that would make play somewhat simpler. In fact this is another area where HoML also does the same thing, there are far less little twiggy differences between powers. But I still HAVE powers!

I think a little standardization (in terms of ranges etc.) is perfectly acceptable.

Upper_Krust · Jun 10, 2018

Garthanos said:
How would you bring Come and Get it into your meta
- maneuvers system [MENTION=6920364]Up[/MENTION]per Krust

I'd probably just make it a Heroic Tier Maneouver with a -1 die effect.

However, the power itself doesn't make a ton of sense, I mean its a non-magical pull thats automatic. I get that its an insult and all but you'd think it might require an attack vs. Will first or something like that.

AbdulAlhazred · Jun 10, 2018

Garthanos said:
i suspect a ton of them could be allowed without problem too...

I do think sleep being a left over in terms of save or dies and save or sucks are too easily warped into too powerful says something about that particular mechanic not necessarily the flexibility of repeating for me it says "Tradition" was allowed to harm the balance of the game.

If it had been computed as ongoing damage they might have noticed it was potentially too powerful...

The hit point damage of sleep doesn't have to be its only thing of course this is a controller power it could create sluggishness (losing ability to take opportunity actions ), dizziness (falling), slowing etc it can be interesting without legacy save or dies.

Also note how "Sleep of the White Queen" poison damage and sleep at zero hp or comatose and awaken with a kiss.... is very analogous to the "The wounds or PTSD" at zero hit points we have been discussing as a general mechanic.

If Defeated is allowed to be more interesting I think the game wins.

Its fine if 0 hit points is a more flexible thing, but what I'm worried about is the action DURING combat. If every power has to work almost exactly the same way, things get dull. This was the fundamental argument against 4e combat TO START WITH, so taking it to another extreme doesn't seem to me to be a great option.

I want to keep the best of both worlds, and IMHO the way to do that is with a carefully tailored set of powers.

AbdulAlhazred · Jun 11, 2018

Upper_Krust said:
Okey dokey, lets take a look. Haven't really had my head in an RPG book for a while but what the heck right, its like riding a bike...I hope.

Could easily add a 1 square area of effect at Heroic Tier (as opposed to the Burst 1 effect in the Paragon Tier).

What part of this cannot be reproduced?

Ray +1 dice, Slowed, -1 dice.

So 1 dice (At will), +1 Ray, -1 slowed = 1d6 + slowed.

Probably used less because other powers like Thunderwave and Cloud of Daggers were better because they had damage + effect. ie. they were more powerful than the others to begin with.

Its too powerful for an at-will. You could change it so you get Close Blast 3 0d6 + Int Thunder damage and push 3 squares.

I agree. You can reduce damage to zero and still do the bonus dice damage (as in the case of Thunderwave above).

See under Specialist Wizards on Page 1 of my Revised 4E Wizard Class.

Wizards can CHOOSE less energy types for more damage.

Unless you specialise in which case you could be dealing up to 2d12 damage instead of 2d6.

Save ends is a boost. Damage could go up to 2d12 for Specialists.

Cheers.

As noted on Page 1 of my document under Missing Options; Difficult Terrain was not included in that version, but as you say its an easy inclusion to the system. Can't remember if I just wanted to keep things to within 2 pages for that draft of the Class.

Could easily work as a 0d6 + Int bonus + weakness

Could work as (area burst) 1d6 + Int and ongoing 5.

I could easily add a Heroic Tier Sustain as a Standard Action (just like Sustain as a Minor at Paragon).

See above.

You could easily duplicate this, dunno why I never had Unconscious there to begin with although that said (IIRC) I think I left it out simply because I thought it was too powerful.

You can have effects without damages.

Bigby's = Variable of the Sphere delivery system
Fireball = Close enough
Stinking Cloud = Only requires a delivery system moved from Paragon Tier - I possibly moved it to begin with for balance issues (can't remember exactly why).
Web = Close-ish, but specifically needs a difficult terrain effect - which (I noted in the document) hadn't been designed yet.

I disagree.

With an extra 1/2 page (or less) we could do absolutely anything. Probably about 3 lines away from doing everything on your above list.

I think a little standardization (in terms of ranges etc.) is perfectly acceptable.

Honestly, I think it would be interesting to hear someone like [MENTION=12749]MwaO[/MENTION] who's got a really good handle on powers and tactics and the subtle trade-offs between different things. There's a LOT MORE GOING ON with 4e powers, particularly wizard ones in PHB1, than you seem to believe.

The differences between powers can be quite signficant even for subtle variations. Much of 4e tactics is based on this. For instance you called Thunderwave "overpowered", but you are INCORRECT. Its a good power, but close blast 3 is a very tough thing to use consistently in tactical situations with the rest of the party to consider (you will QUITE often end up hitting at least one ally with it). This reduces the power's potency considerably and puts it on a par with others. Also push CAN be a useful effect, but it can also be utterly worthless much of the time. Similar analysis can be done with other powers, and really only extensive testing and analysis can tease these things out.

Yes, you can add rules to include the effects I noted as missing, but I assure you that the addition of more such, as well as '0 die cost' minor effects, more save options, sustain options, etc. will cost you considerable page count. This is because these things can and will interact, in ways you are not predicting, which will require additional rules to try to handle [MENTION=12749]MwaO[/MENTION] pointed out 2 in your existing implementation, but the numbers will increase GEOMETRICALLY with more options).

I am not even attempting to get into entire ranges of wizard powers you haven't addressed at all, such as summons, a wide variety of different types of conjurations, powers with movement effects and secondary effects, etc. And what about other options, such as miss effects, outright effects that aren't related to hitting or missing, etc. etc. etc.

Just as examples from the Wizard list in PHB1:
Bigby's Grasping Hands
Frostburn
Lightning bolt
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Prismatic Beams
Crushing Titan's Fist
Ice Tomb
Evard's Black Tentacles
Chain Lightning
Acid Storm
Elemental Maw
Maze
Prismatic Spray
Confusion
Forcecage
Legion's Hold

These are ALL powers which would require additional effects to emulate in any close way at all. Obviously you can just leave wizards with mostly straight up blasting damage as their option, but how then would you distinguish them from Sorcerers?

Garthanos · Jun 11, 2018

Upper_Krust said:
I'd probably just make it a Heroic Tier Maneouver with a -1 die effect.

However, the power itself doesn't make a ton of sense, I mean its a non-magical pull thats automatic. I get that its an insult and all but you'd think it might require an attack vs. Will first or something like that.

Ummm it is an attack vs Will... just not two attacks to gain an effect

AbdulAlhazred · Jun 11, 2018

Upper_Krust said:
I'd probably just make it a Heroic Tier Maneouver with a -1 die effect.

However, the power itself doesn't make a ton of sense, I mean its a non-magical pull thats automatic. I get that its an insult and all but you'd think it might require an attack vs. Will first or something like that.

I think this was a design flaw in 4e, brought on by a need to keep AC as a primary defense in order to avoid a total break with existing D&D practice. In HoML I removed AC as a defense, at which point the whole dichotomy between weapon and implement powers and all its difficulties goes away (because now their are only NADs). So a power like CaGI can now be a CHA attack against WILL, with a weapon damage rider or secondary. It becomes much more logical.

I will note that 4e doesn't have 'non-magical' attacks. In fact it lacks a definition OF magic! All power sources are stated to be forms of 'magic'. I thought this was a cool thing as it obviates this whole 'how does this non-magical thing work' from consideration. It doesn't, it IS a magical effect. Its just clunky that 4e has to make it a weapon-based effect and cannot make those work against a NAD without math problems.

This is the kind of reason I say there are a HUGE number of little things that can be done to improve 4e! Once you go back and erase the obvious mistakes, the power lists actually fall into line pretty well. PHB1 has a total of about 80 pages of class powers (plus another 20 or so pages for PP/ED which includes a mix of powers and other stuff).

I've cut that by 1/3 simply be compressing 30 levels to 20 levels, and then further reduced it by eliminating some redundant powers, creating some common pools of powers, etc. In HoML I can implement about 20 classes in less space than 4e did 8 classes in PHB1. Each CHARACTER however can still pick from pretty much the same number of powers they could in 4e, and the range of things they can do is equally great.

Now suppose that a non-power-based approach like U_K's could produce each class' equivalent list in 5 pages. I don't think that gains anything over what I have, but it is at the cost of doing away with explicit powers, which I still say makes the game a lot different!

Garthanos · Jun 11, 2018

I have watched a video where a boxer by feinting towards then backing away in an apparently imbalanced way was able to pull his opponent rushing in and then clocked him real good... (he did this as a regular element of his fighting methods too, his opponents had to know it was a possibility) .

Arguably the only fantastical thing about it is the ability to use it against multiple opponents.

The use of false openings and taunting enemies to attack in a way that leaves them immediately vulnerable is so common as I have said a system that doesn't support manipulating enemies in these kind of ways is just innadequate and uninteresting.

Garthanos · Jun 11, 2018

AbdulAlhazred said:
So a power like CaGI can now be a CHA attack against WILL, with a weapon damage rider or secondary. It becomes much more logical.

It was made Str vs Will which I suppose is about the athleticism of leaving an opening that really isnt one... its about body position not glib tongue work.