D&D 4E The Best Thing from 4E

What are your favorite 4E elements?


JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Well, in general (although it's not an explicitly stated thing anywhere IIRC), 4e has a "say 'yes and' or 'yes but'" policy.
That's basically true, but I'm more interested in what the mechanics encourage themselves. I'm not solely interested in that (I think it's interesting they had stuff on wishlists, for example), but in regard to 4e, I think what the mechanics encourage (or don't fight against) is more interesting.
There's also reskinning, which 4e explicitly encouraged on multiple occasions; there was even a Dragon article specifically about the authors' advice to people who want to reskin stuff. It specifically said that, as long as it doesn't seem abusive or intended to make a strange combination, DMs should totally be willing to do stuff like changing the keywords and damage types of powers (I believe the specific example was changing a Wizard Fire power to Cold because the Wizard player wanted to be cold-themed).
I think this is interesting, because it's not a rule in any way, but I think that 4e would broadly be okay with it (just like if anyone could take any appropriately-leveled power from any class). But I do think there is a good amount of room for abuse here, for the moderate-to-hard optimizers.
Finally, 4e's Quests were a pretty big way for players and DMs to jointly shape the direction of both the individual character and the campaign as a whole. I haven't had much chance to see them in action, but I'm sure they would be helpful.
Oh, I use quests all the time. This is interesting. So you think it's okay for the GM to set these, over, say, the players?
 

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JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Hmmmm. Somewhat depends on the tone of the game (see my last post). I don't personally like to mess too much with the PCs, but OTOH you will see some situations where you KNOW that you can add to the player's experience. Far back in time (long before 4e) my sister and I were playing probably Basic, or maybe 1e, and her dwarf character stuck his hand into a trapped chest. So, I had the nice blade trap lop her hand off! Forever more the character was a one-handed dwarf. I don't think we ever penalized her for it or really changed her stats, but it did have some narrative impact. The character ever after went around with a hook, and finally a magical sword grafted into her body. So, I do look at chances to 'hack' PCs as opportunities, but it has to work for everyone or its not fun.
So generally... "GM judgement call; based on what the GM things is fun for the group, anything goes"?
As for what 4e does... It isn't really especially helpful. The rules themselves are quite amenable to various things, its an easy system to hack on in this way. There are plenty of keywords to inform things, powers that can be reused in all sorts of ways, etc. In the 'penalizing a character' department that was never hard. Honestly though, I suggest mostly narrative 'penalties' (like the one-handed dwarf). I guess the equivalent 4e character might want to pick certain specific build options (IE, use a shield and one-handed weapons).
I think that quests were a good example of ways that the GM can have strong influence over PCs. And probably picking out magic items. I'm sure there are other things, but I'm curious what the mechanics of 4e encourages.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
I suppose that should really depend on the 'social contract.' :sigh:
I agree that it's almost entirely a social contract issue. I'm just curious what people prefer, and what there thoughts are on what the 4e mechanics encourage.
In theory, the DM creates the world and PCs create the characters, and the two should meet only in that characters should be possible (however improbable) in the world. That can be kinda bland, though.
If you're saying "the GM makes the setting, the PCs build their characters however they want, and can insert them into the setting despite how little sense it makes," then I think I disagree. But I'm not sure if that's what you're saying.
In 13A, for instance, each PC gets 'one unique thing' that can quite easily set up something significant in or about the world. That's players poaching on the DMs traditional preserve, but it can work out very well.
Yeah. I remember one of the biggest turnoffs I read about that system was one player's OUT being a jet pack. I was pretty much done with it as of that point.
Of course, system also makes a difference.
Indeed; that's what I'm asking about.
Modern D&D gave players a lot more character customization options, so there was less need for the DM to go messing with PCs, both because they were already differentiated, /and/ because players were probably invested in the PC being 'just so,' the way he envisioned it. A player who just didn't have a strong concept and wanted to 'see how his character developed,' OTOH, would be just asking for it....
So... do you think there's anything in 4e that encourages GM's to shape PCs in any way? Quests, magic item distribution, etc? Just curious.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
If you're saying "the GM makes the setting, the PCs build their characters however they want, and can insert them into the setting despite how little sense it makes," then I think I disagree. But I'm not sure if that's what you're saying.
Nope, trying to say the opposite about the PCs: that they'd be expected to build their characters to fit in the world's realm of possibility, rather than expand that realm. I'm not sure that's always the best thing, as player contributions to the world in the form of backstory can be positive.

Yeah. I remember one of the biggest turnoffs I read about that system was one player's OUT being a jet pack. I was pretty much done with it as of that point.
Lol. The 13A setting includes floating cities, in an 'overworld' (or upperworld or something - an opposite number to the, I guess traditional at this point, Underdark), a magical version of a 'jet pack' could fit as an overworld artifact.

So... do you think there's anything in 4e that encourages GM's to shape PCs in any way? Quests, magic item distribution, etc? Just curious.
Very little in 3e or 4e. They present a lot of character customization to the player. Encouraging the DM to undermine that would seem counterproductive. Not that anything in a system could stop a DM from doing just that. Within that 'very little,' though, could be item distribution, especially group items in 4e (and artifacts, though, in 4e, they're depicted as moving on from the character using them, eventually), alternate rewards, and mysteries or other fuzzy bits left in/implied by backgrounds, themes, PPs, backstory, class 'fluff' like warlock pacts, or possible Epic Destinies that the DM could develop.
 

What was innovative in OtE, that 4e picked up?

OtA is kind of the Ur Indie Story Game (although pretty much all its elements existed in some form in earlier games). Characters have IIRC 4 'traits', which are just descriptive phrases, with one being a flaw. Beyond that its all basically dice pool mechanics, your primary trait is worth 4 dice, secondary ones 3 dice, etc.

So, as far as what 4e got from OtE, mechanically nothing really. The heritage of OtE was the story telling game concept itself. The game is ABOUT the characters, it heavily favors a scene framing kind of play that is driven by the dramatic needs of the characters. I seem to recall there might have been a sort of 'quest like' mechanism too, but I'm a little hazy on that.

It was an interesting game. I always thought it was rather hampered by the limited scope of the setting, it rather begged to be a more wide-open sci-fi or spy-thriller kind of genre game.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Not really seeing how a hypothetical 4e suddenly appearing in 1990 would undercut any of that. Character-driven games go back, at least, to Champions! in '81 (likewise 4e's fluff/cruch split), if not all the way back into the dark mists of gaming history. Maybe it had some more storytelling elements I just sorta didn't notice after 9 years of WoD? That'd move it forward a few years, to being 'modern' but not 'innovative' in the mid-90s...

I'm trying to think if there's anything in 4e that hadn't been done in 70s & 80s...?
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
That's basically true, but I'm more interested in what the mechanics encourage themselves. I'm not solely interested in that (I think it's interesting they had stuff on wishlists, for example), but in regard to 4e, I think what the mechanics encourage (or don't fight against) is more interesting.

Well, there are a couple sides to this then. On the one hand (as I mention below), I think I consider some things "part of the rules" (and therefore "mechanics" in some sense of the term) which you do not. On the other hand, I do think that certain aspects of the mechanical design help in this regard. People frequently talk about how Wizards (=most full casters), in editions prior to 4e and especially 3e and its derivatives, have " 'I win' buttons" and dramatically greater "agency" than other classes (=most everyone else). 4e did away with that, hard; it's part of why some people (erroneously) say that Fighters are Wizards in 4e. They're not--they just (finally) have a parity of agency with Wizards and the rest (and they definitely don't shoot lightning out of their hindquarters). Though it wasn't common, there were some people turned off to 4th edition SPECIFICALLY because Wizards were no longer objectively superior to other classes; I had a...rather frustrating argument with someone who dogmatically insisted that it was bad design for Fighters and Wizards to have the same level of power in a fantasy game.

Getting to the actual mechanics of this, much of it boils down to all classes having Powers: declarative actions with specific effects, which the DM is obliged to adjudicate as written unless there is good reason to say otherwise, so long as any prerequisites are met (e.g. you can't use a Weapon Attack if your hands are tied behind your back and you're disarmed). Having these declarative powers--which intentionally, though implicitly, leave the fiction justification up for the player and DM to negotiate--means that every player has a certain (relatively small) amount of authorial participation, which is most obvious with Martial characters and their Daily powers (though even there, there are SOME real-world things which reflect this kind of physical phenomena WITHOUT player-based narrative control; I won't get into that because it's not really germane to the discussion.)

The expansion of declarative agency to all players is sometimes described as "depowering the DM," though I of course think this is a misnomer. The DM lost no power, unless relative power difference is all that matters, and even then, no 4e character ever becomes as powerful as a high-level 3e Wizard, who can break campaigns over her knee and construct worlds. What happened is that the game shifted; rather than being a "lecture-like" environment, it became a "recitation-like" environment. There's still one person clearly in authority, analogous to the professor (the DM). There's still a variable number of people (players::students) clearly there to get something the authority can provide (game::course content). The difference is that in a more lecture-like environment, control is more-or-less unilaterally exerted by the authority on the attendees; the authority alone decides what is done, and the attendees respond accordingly, either individually or in groups. In a more recitation-like environment, control is exerted in part bilaterally; the attendees have some amount of "say" in what is discussed, can raise questions, debate with the authority or fellow attendees, etc. In neither case does the authority stop being the final arbiter nor stop deciding what will and won't fly; the situation remains a "dictatorship." However, in the recitation-like environment, the "dictator" is obliged to listen to the "populace," and the "populace" is given some amount of control over discussion and (in rare cases) policy.

I think this is interesting, because it's not a rule in any way, but I think that 4e would broadly be okay with it (just like if anyone could take any appropriately-leveled power from any class). But I do think there is a good amount of room for abuse here, for the moderate-to-hard optimizers.

Well, I suppose that depends on what you consider "a rule." It's a DM-side thing, to be sure, but I'd classify it as a "rule" just as much as I would "say 'yes and...' or 'yes but...' ". That is, it's very clearly a guideline for GM behavior, which I consider to be just as much a concern of the ruleset as guidelines for player behavior.

Oh, I use quests all the time. This is interesting. So you think it's okay for the GM to set these, over, say, the players?

I'm not precisely sure what you mean by "set these over the players." If you mean the DM fiat declaring "This is the thing your character wants," I'd probably not be very okay with that. The structure of 4e Quests, as I understood it, is inherently a dialogue between player and DM (again, don't have my books with me). As I understood it, 4e's Quests are not something "set on" the player, but rather dynamically determined as a function of what the player finds interesting and what the DM thinks is worth giving session time to.

They are very nearly the same (but not exactly the same) as Dungeon World's Bonds. Dungeon World intentionally formalizes them as part of character creation/progression, and keeps them to a certain kind of style and scope (that is, one-, or rarely two-, sentence statements about the relationship between the PC and some other entity--person, place, organization, object, etc., generally goal-directed or in some way understandable as "completed," "addressed," "abandoned," or "changed.") But the heart of the rule system is essentially the same.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
In other words, cursed items are fun when used sparingly, with player buy-in, and in the right context.

Cursed items to screw the players over are simply crap.

Granted. While I didn't really say as such in the post you replied to, my previous post definitely covers exactly this kind of idea. Particularly with the "corrupting" objects. Objects which invite choices and which inspire quests and story = lovely. Objects which dick over players for no reason other than they weren't sufficiently paranoid = bullsh*t.
 



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