My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games

pemerton · Aug 26, 2018

[MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION], [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]

Building PCs insn't creating a scenario, or a game to "play through".

Telling the players that their PCs are at the Hardby market is not creating a scenario, or a game to "play through".

What exactly is your claim about RPGs being "game creation engines", and how does that claim apply to the two examples I've given. What game was created in advance of play?

Lanefan · Aug 26, 2018

pemerton said:
Building PCs insn't creating a scenario, or a game to "play through".

Well it's creating an essential element of the game, without which the game cannot be played.

Telling the players that their PCs are at the Hardby market is not creating a scenario, or a game to "play through".

Er...telling the players that their PCs are at the Hardby market* is the very definition of creating a scenario. The players then take that scenario and interact with it (i.e. play through it) via their PCs: in this case someone looks for and finds a peddler of tokens and feathers and seeks to buy an angel feather, etc.

* - along with, I have to assume, some descriptive narration and-or trope-based examples of what the PCs see there - the bustling crowds, the weather, some examples of goods and wares available, etc.

What exactly is your claim about RPGs being "game creation engines", and how does that claim apply to the two examples I've given.

I'll leave this one to [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] , as that's his term not mine.

What game was created in advance of play?

In this particular example: the Hardby market (created by you, I assume) and Hardby itself along with whatever other parts of the Greyhawk setting you used (created by the Greyhawk authors, as modified by you). Creating the setting is, in an RPG, a part of creating the game.

However, say it with me slowly: creation/set-up - does - not - always - have - to - occur - in - advance - of - play - to - still - be - creation/set-up. I've half a hunch that [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] and I are agreeing on this bit, if maybe not on much else.

Lanefan

Ovinomancer · Aug 26, 2018

Hussar said:
And, just to leap frog off of [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION], I'd say that in an RPG, unlike other games, set-up requires the creation of elements in order to be able to play. You don't need to create anything beforehand to play Pictionary - all you need is a writing surface, a writing implement and some words, none of which are "made up".

Granted, you do create something through play in Pictionary, but, nothing is created before hand and nothing needs to be created beforehand.

This is why I reject [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]'s definition of setup being all equal. It's not. Very, very few board games require you to create something, completely independent of the mechanics of the game, in order to play.

Special pleading. You're saying that creation during play of RPGs is setup retroactively because it fits your model but creation during play of Pictionary is just playing the game. To do this, you ignore that the goal of Pictionary is to get your team to guess correctly, so the creation of drawings to do this is setup to enable the guessing.

Your framework is flawed and you're resorting to increasingly intracate contortions to keep it. You should step back and evaluate.

Maxperson · Aug 26, 2018

Lanefan said:
In this particular example: the Hardby market (created by you, I assume) and Hardby itself along with whatever other parts of the Greyhawk setting you used (created by the Greyhawk authors, as modified by you). Creating the setting is, in an RPG, a part of creating the game.

However, say it with me slowly: creation/set-up - does - not - always - have - to - occur - in - advance - of - play - to - still - be - creation/set-up. I've half a hunch that [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] and I are agreeing on this bit, if maybe not on much else.

I remember at some point [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] talking about a campaign set in Greyhawk where he used the map/place names, but the specifics of those places was left up to play. The decision to use the Greyhawk map and place names would be set-up, unless that was decided as part the initial moment of play. However, even if he did decide to use Greyhawk in the moment of the initial scene, unless the players created their characters in the initial moment as well, there was some set-up that had to happen. Namely character creation, which is a part of setting up the game.

pemerton · Aug 26, 2018

Lanefan said:
Well it's creating an essential element of the game, without which the game cannot be played.

Er...telling the players that their PCs are at the Hardby market* is the very definition of creating a scenario. The players then take that scenario and interact with it (i.e. play through it) via their PCs: in this case someone looks for and finds a peddler of tokens and feathers and seeks to buy an angel feather, etc.

* - along with, I have to assume, some descriptive narration and-or trope-based examples of what the PCs see there - the bustling crowds, the weather, some examples of goods and wares available, etc.

I'll leave this one to [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] , as that's his term not mine.

In this particular example: the Hardby market (created by you, I assume) and Hardby itself along with whatever other parts of the Greyhawk setting you used (created by the Greyhawk authors, as modified by you). Creating the setting is, in an RPG, a part of creating the game.

However, say it with me slowly: creation/set-up - does - not - always - have - to - occur - in - advance - of - play - to - still - be - creation/set-up.

You're treating creation and set-up as synonyms, or at least as co-referring. But they're not. Some RPG set-up is not creation (eg choosing house rules, or optional rules, or whatever). And some RPG creation is not set-up (eg deciding, in response to failed Aura Reading check, that an angel feather is cursed).

And telling the players that they're at a market is not "the very definition of creating a scenario". In Moldvay Basic, a "scenario" is a premapped and pre-described dungeon, with some motivating backstory built in. In the DL modules, a "scenario" is a pre-authored sequence of events.
[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] has described scenarios by reference to events eg "wooing the widow".

You are at a market. There is a seller of magical trinkets who claims to have an angel feather from the Bright Desert. What doyou do? is not a scenario. It's a bare situation. It's not "game creation" - it's playing the game (ie the GM saying stuff about the PCs' situation, as a prelude to and invitation to the players saying stuff about what their PCs do).

Likewise You come upon a Large Steading that Reeks of Smoke and Worse. That turned out to be an invitation to make an ally of a giant shaman after trying to trick the giant chieftain by selling him his own ox. The existence of both ox and shaman were the result of successful player action declarations. Remind me what the "game creation" is here again, as opposed to the playing of the game?

Lanefan · Aug 27, 2018

pemerton said:
You're treating creation and set-up as synonyms, or at least as co-referring. But they're not.

I'm treating creation as one of various things included in the umbrella of set-up.

Some RPG set-up is not creation (eg choosing house rules, or optional rules, or whatever).

Correct, along with setting up the table, buying dice, and so forth.

And some RPG creation is not set-up (eg deciding, in response to failed Aura Reading check, that an angel feather is cursed).

Here we disagree; I see pretty much all RPG creation as coming under set-up and certainly all RPG creation that comes from the GM.

Play: declaring the Aura Reading and then having it fail via game mechanics
Creation: deciding the feather is cursed in response to this failure, along with any associated narration thereof
Play: whatever the player/PC does in response to this creation piece.

Why and how do I make this distinction? That the feather is cursed is something that is and becomes a part of the setting and - taken retroactively - was therefore actually in place all along within the game world. That's set-up.

And telling the players that they're at a market is not "the very definition of creating a scenario". In Moldvay Basic, a "scenario" is a premapped and pre-described dungeon, with some motivating backstory built in. In the DL modules, a "scenario" is a pre-authored sequence of events.

[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] has described scenarios by reference to events eg "wooing the widow".

You are at a market. There is a seller of magical trinkets who claims to have an angel feather from the Bright Desert. What doyou do? is not a scenario. It's a bare situation. It's not "game creation" - it's playing the game (ie the GM saying stuff about the PCs' situation, as a prelude to and invitation to the players saying stuff about what their PCs do).

You call it scene framing. I call it scenario creation. Same thing, and it's all set-up.

Likewise You come upon a Large Steading that Reeks of Smoke and Worse. That turned out to be an invitation to make an ally of a giant shaman after trying to trick the giant chieftain by selling him his own ox. The existence of both ox and shaman were the result of successful player action declarations. Remind me what the "game creation" is here again, as opposed to the playing of the game?

Creation, whether by player or GM, brought the ox and shaman into existence within the game world. Later interaction with either or both of these comes under play.

Blackmoor_Film · Aug 27, 2018

Well, this bubbled up to the top and I took a look. This is always an interesting subject to me.

I won't go into any of my ideas, because I am still debating it all. Yet, this always ends up being quite the study in human consciousness. Since these games are being leveraged by our amazing abilities with our brains, it's hard to find a boundary for the game as so much rests in our shared imagination.

I will keep reading now.

Hussar · Aug 27, 2018

Maxperson said:
Reject it all you want, creation is still game set-up, as is placing pieces on a board and shuffling cards. The only major difference is the scope that scenario set-up entails. You really should be focusing on the game set-up goals, rather than try to show that creation is somehow not set-up, or that it is somehow outside of the game.

As for Pictionary, that you create during game play just means that it's more like [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s style of RPG play, not that it isn't like any RPGs.

Sigh. There is NO CREATION IN SET UP when you play Pictionary. There is NO CREATION in set up when you play virtually any board game, outside of strictly delineated elements like deciding a warband in a war game.

Is creation part of set up? Sure. I can see that. Is all set up creation? Nope. Not at all. That's the false equivalency you keep trying to make. Board games do not require creating elements outside of the scope of the game in order to play. All role playing games do.

Hussar · Aug 27, 2018

pemerton said:
[MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION], [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]

Building PCs insn't creating a scenario, or a game to "play through".

Telling the players that their PCs are at the Hardby market is not creating a scenario, or a game to "play through".

What exactly is your claim about RPGs being "game creation engines", and how does that claim apply to the two examples I've given. What game was created in advance of play?

Ok, let's work with this.

DM: You are at the Hardby market.

Players: Ok. ...

.... crickets chirp...

DM: What do you do?

Players: Well, what can we do? Who can we talk to? Can we have more information?

DM: Nope. No more information for you. We will play this game without creating anything before you interact with it.

Players: Umm... we look around?

DM: Ok. And?

Players: Well, what do we see?

DM: NO. Dammit. Nothing needs to be created before you play this game, so, what do you do.

Players: ((Stare at each other around the table for three hours before going home.))

Because, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], until SOMEONE creates stuff, there's nothing to do.

Hussar · Aug 27, 2018

Ovinomancer said:
Special pleading. You're saying that creation during play of RPGs is setup retroactively because it fits your model but creation during play of Pictionary is just playing the game. To do this, you ignore that the goal of Pictionary is to get your team to guess correctly, so the creation of drawings to do this is setup to enable the guessing.

Your framework is flawed and you're resorting to increasingly intracate contortions to keep it. You should step back and evaluate.

What do you create in Pictionary BEFORE you start play? What do you have to create before play starts, in order to play?

Or, in Pictionary, you have EVERYTHING you need before you begin play. You have your word list, you have your pen, you have your drawing surface. What more do you need?

I'd say you're being overly pedantic by saying that the game doesn't start until after I start drawing. After all, people can begin guessing before I've drawn a single thing. Play begins when you turn over the timer.