IMO all this "balancing" nonsense is making up solutions for problems that dont exist anywhere but internet forums.
I've been DM'ing 3e and now pathfinder since they first came out and what i've noticed is that most actual players dont care about all being equally good at every single thing. Most of them want to do one thing, very well. And their happy with that.
For instance my current group has got a cleric, a mage, cleric/rogue, barbarian, ranger/rogue and a paladin.
Its been wilderness heavy so the ranger gets a lot of spotlight time scouting and such, he's found a few beasties and led them into ambushes for the rest of the group. He's been only mediocre in the actual fighting but ruled the skill challenges. He's enjoying the hell out of the game and formulating long term plans for his character in the world.
Could the mage use invisibility and silence to scout? Maybe, but only for a few minutes a day. So unless the party wants to move about 2 miles a day thats not a real option. It might be an internet forum option, but its not a real option in play.
The pure cleric has a high CHR and lots of diplomacy. He's a decent fighter but excells when dealing with NPC's. How do i know he enjoys this? Because he created a character specifically to do it and jumps to the forefront everytime that comes up. He's happy. Not ruling combat by any stretch but happy.
Could casters use charms? Sure, but that severely limits the amount of people you can talk do each day, plus no one likes to be mind raped, so as soon as it wears off those NPC's are going to be pissed. Not a good option. So sure, an internet forum option, but not a real one in play.
The barbarian.... is a barbarian. He smashes stuff with power attack. So far he's done the most actual enemy killing and some pretty solid RPing as well as assisted the ranger with wilderness stuff.
Could casters also kill bad guys? Sure, they do it too. But they cant and dont do it consistently, round by round, fight after fight, all day, each adventuring day.
The caster has fireballed a few but all in all he hasnt nearly kept up the meleer's in combat effectiveness.
Maybe its because I dont play the monsters as total morons so when the caster throws some area control spell out they just back off and get out of sight until the spell wears off or the party comes chasing them and then that spell was effectively wasted.
But for whatever reason in many, many years of playing I have never seen the caster dominance in actual play that you see people getting all worked up over online.
IME most people have wanted to play some sort of martial or skill monkey character. Its not too hard to find at least one caster player, but sometimes filling that cleric slot is really hard.
Long story short I hope that 5e doesnt worry too much about it and lets us DM's handle it. At bare minimum I hope for damn sure they dont worry about everyone contributing equally in every single fight they way they did in 4e.
Just give everyone a Niche, let them be the best at it most of the time (they dont need to be the best all the time) and back away.
I've been DM'ing 3e and now pathfinder since they first came out and what i've noticed is that most actual players dont care about all being equally good at every single thing. Most of them want to do one thing, very well. And their happy with that.
For instance my current group has got a cleric, a mage, cleric/rogue, barbarian, ranger/rogue and a paladin.
Its been wilderness heavy so the ranger gets a lot of spotlight time scouting and such, he's found a few beasties and led them into ambushes for the rest of the group. He's been only mediocre in the actual fighting but ruled the skill challenges. He's enjoying the hell out of the game and formulating long term plans for his character in the world.
Could the mage use invisibility and silence to scout? Maybe, but only for a few minutes a day. So unless the party wants to move about 2 miles a day thats not a real option. It might be an internet forum option, but its not a real option in play.
The pure cleric has a high CHR and lots of diplomacy. He's a decent fighter but excells when dealing with NPC's. How do i know he enjoys this? Because he created a character specifically to do it and jumps to the forefront everytime that comes up. He's happy. Not ruling combat by any stretch but happy.
Could casters use charms? Sure, but that severely limits the amount of people you can talk do each day, plus no one likes to be mind raped, so as soon as it wears off those NPC's are going to be pissed. Not a good option. So sure, an internet forum option, but not a real one in play.
The barbarian.... is a barbarian. He smashes stuff with power attack. So far he's done the most actual enemy killing and some pretty solid RPing as well as assisted the ranger with wilderness stuff.
Could casters also kill bad guys? Sure, they do it too. But they cant and dont do it consistently, round by round, fight after fight, all day, each adventuring day.
The caster has fireballed a few but all in all he hasnt nearly kept up the meleer's in combat effectiveness.
Maybe its because I dont play the monsters as total morons so when the caster throws some area control spell out they just back off and get out of sight until the spell wears off or the party comes chasing them and then that spell was effectively wasted.
But for whatever reason in many, many years of playing I have never seen the caster dominance in actual play that you see people getting all worked up over online.
IME most people have wanted to play some sort of martial or skill monkey character. Its not too hard to find at least one caster player, but sometimes filling that cleric slot is really hard.
Long story short I hope that 5e doesnt worry too much about it and lets us DM's handle it. At bare minimum I hope for damn sure they dont worry about everyone contributing equally in every single fight they way they did in 4e.
Just give everyone a Niche, let them be the best at it most of the time (they dont need to be the best all the time) and back away.