Creature by Poll #7 - Dragon Discussion!

I think I've given the ability polls enough time now, so let's start the discussion. I won't give tables for our dragon yet, but I'll give some starting points for discussion.

A) Our concept:

A dragon seemingly consisting of nothing, just punching a dragonshaped ‘hole’ into existence, this creature has a breath weapon that disintegrates and at greater ages possibly even totally nullifies the existance of a creature. NE, Wyrmling size Medium, 9 HD

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B) Conaill's idea of the astral rift:

Conaill said:

Sounds kinda like a rift to the Astral Plane.

In fact, why not have a creature that *is* a rift to the Astral Plane? A little of a brain-twister, but let's run with it. Here's one way it could work:

The dragon's *body* is actually on the Astral Plane, but it's *skin* is a portal between the material and the Astral. In addition, the dragon is actually incorporeal (but on the Astral Plane). Results:

- Since it's on the Astral, plane, the dragon has perfect mobility in 3 dimensions.
- The dragon gets Quicken Spell for free (standard trait of the Astral Plane).
- If someone tried to grapple the dragon, he'll pass through the dragon's skin, i.e. into the Astral Plane. He'll have to jump back through the dragon to get back to the material plane
- Strange interactions possible with items such as Bags of Holding etc. In particular, creating another rift or gate to the Astral plane should do direct damage to the dragon.
- Does the MotP have specific rules on spells cast through a portal between planes? If so, they could apply to spells cast by or at the dragon.

Waddya think? A little out of the ordinary...

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I mentioned that there are a few problems with using this concept, but it is a good idea, and the problems do not seem too big to be worked out.

The astral plane description from the SRD (note the part which I have bolded):

SRD said:

THE ASTRAL PLANE
The Astral Plane is the space between the planes. When a character moves through an interplanar portal or projects her spirit to a different plane of existence, she travels through the Astral Plane. Even spells that allow instantaneous movement across a plane briefly touch the Astral Plane.
The Astral Plane is a great, endless sphere of clear silvery sky, both above and below. Occasional bits of solid matter can be found here, but most of the Astral Plane is an endless, open domain.
Both planar travelers and refugees from other planes call the Astral Plane home.
The Astral Plane has the following traits.
• Subjective directional gravity.
• Timeless. Age, hunger, thirst, poison, and natural healing don’t function in the Astral Plane, though they resume functioning when the traveler leaves the Astral Plane.
• Mildly neutral-aligned.
• Enhanced magic. All spells and spell-like abilities used within the Astral Plane may be employed as if they were improved by the Quicken Spell feat. Already quickened spells and spell-like abilities are unaffected, as are spells from magic items. Spells so quickened are still prepared and cast at their unmodified level. As with the Quicken Spell feat, only one quickened spell can be cast per round.

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B1) The astral plane is timeless in that it "stops" things like hunger, but also aging and healing, two important aspects for any true dragon. This might be solved this way:

Semi-Astral (Ex): While xxxs are living in the astral plane, part of their "bodies" extend onto the Material Plane. This allows them to experience some physical changes not normally possible on the astral plane, and they can exert a little control on which changes occur how fast. They age and heal at half the normal rate, instead of being unable to age and heal. Similarly, hunger, thirst and poison work at 1/4 the normal rate.

B2) How should the statistics change if the creature is actually encountered on the astral, and should they change at all?

B3) The ability to Quicken any spell cast is quite potent. The semi-astral nature might put a limit on this ability, though.

C) The creature will have good maneuverability abilities. If we use the astral rift idea, this might very well mean that we give it teleportation abilities.

D) The creature will be highly magical, starting with integrated spell levels at an early age category, and a few other spell-like abilities. Suggestions?

E) There has been a suggestion that we drop the normal frightful presence in favor of a despair attack, possibly a gaze attack.

F) The breath weapon will likely be quite powerful, but not necessarily from the start. In the beginning, it is basically a disintegration effect, and the nullification effect starts maybe at great wyrm. The nullification effect might be tough to incorporate - in one Rokugan book, there was a nezumi PrC that has a similar ability which could be used as a basis, though.

Will it be incorporeal?

Knight Otu said:

E) There has been a suggestion that we drop the normal frightful presence in favor of a despair attack, possibly a gaze attack.

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Good idea, something like

'Whenever a creature meets the gaze of the "astral dragon" they must make a saving throw [ insert crunch] or be striken with a nilistic despair that impairs all action as the spell emotion:despair"

The idea of the astral dragon sounds really cool but isn't it the case than in standard DnD cosmology the astal doesn't actually 'overlay' on the amterial plane like the shadow or ethereal planes do and this is what makes it possible for things like combat to occur on two planes simultaneously.

This could probably be sidestepped but I just thought I'd mention it.

I'll say again that the concept seems really cool though.

Gez said:

Will it be incorporeal?

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Most likely, even if we do not use the astral rift idea.

Ferret said:

'Whenever a creature meets the gaze of the "astral dragon" they must make a saving throw [ insert crunch] or be striken with a nilistic despair that impairs all action as the spell emotion:despair"

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Yes, that would be about the text. The spell would be crushing despair, though.

The idea of the astral dragon sounds really cool but isn't it the case than in standard DnD cosmology the astal doesn't actually 'overlay' on the amterial plane like the shadow or ethereal planes do and this is what makes it possible for things like combat to occur on two planes simultaneously.

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You likely mean that the material and the astral are not coexistent, as defined in the Manual of the Planes. It certainly complicates matters. You could propably say, using the action system, that the dragon gets a full round on one plane, and a single action on the other. How does that sound?

True, the two are not coexistent, but that doesn't stop portals (gates, rifts, whatever) from occuring. If the dragon's skin essentially *is* such a portal, then we just have a moveable connection between the two planes. You could think of the portal as providing a local coexistence of the two planes.

If the actual body of the dragon is on the astral plane, it would have it's normal mobility there (Average flight, or somesuch). On the material plane, it's maneuverability would essentially depend on how it can move it's "portal" around. I'd give it Perfect maneuverability with a high speed (essentially, it doesn't have any mass on the material plane, it's just mentally moving it's "portal" around).

Not sure I would give it teleportation as well. Perhaps only x/day or so. Severing its connection to the material plane would be equivalent to shedding or destroying its skin. And if it's already flitting about with Perfect maneuverability, it may not need to teleport anyway. Best approach to killing this thing might be to fight it on the Astral plane. At least there it'll move like a normal dragon, and the spellcasters can take advantage of the automatic Quicken as well. Easiest way to *get* to the Astral plane might be to jump through the astral rift, i.e. jump straight into the dragon! Of course, once you kill the thing, the rift dissipates, and you might be stuck...

Aging etc: Since this creature is in constant contact with the Material, it's not too hard tro argue that it should experience some of it's effects.

PS: before we get locked into calling this thing an "astral dragon", I would much prefer the term "astral rift dragon" or simply "rift dragon". I think of it as an inky blackness, accompanied with a crackling of static electricity. Perhaps also a slight sucking effect, as a normal rift. (Maybe up to a Strong wind effect: extinguishes unprotected flames, Fort DC 10 or Tiny and smaller creatures are Knocked Down... bye-bye familiars!)

Actually, I think the fact that the astral is coterminous with the material to allow connections between the two planes. That s not a problem.

If the actual body of the dragon is on the astral plane, it would have it's normal mobility there (Average flight, or somesuch). On the material plane, it's maneuverability would essentially depend on how it can move it's "portal" around. I'd give it Perfect maneuverability with a high speed (essentially, it doesn't have any mass on the material plane, it's just mentally moving it's "portal" around).

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It is unfortunate that the MotP rules are not open, with the movement rules for the Astral Plane, otherwise we could reference that. However, your suggestions sound good, so I think we'll use that unless someone has a better idea.

Not sure I would give it teleportation as well. Perhaps only x/day or so. Severing its connection to the material plane would be equivalent to shedding or destroying its skin. And if it's already flitting about with Perfect maneuverability, it may not need to teleport anyway.

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Since the astral is the conduit for teleportation, I think that teleportation would be necessary. Think of it as the dragon retracting its skin onto the astral for a split-second before projecting it back into the material.
And I certainly wouldn't give it teleport from the start. At some age, it would receive the ability to dimension door, which would be upgraded to teleport and then greater teleport.

PS: before we get locked into calling this thing an "astral dragon", I would much prefer the term "astral rift dragon" or simply "rift dragon".

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We're not quite at the point to name the dragon yet, and the favorite seems to be void dragon anyway.

Perhaps also a slight sucking effect, as a normal rift. (Maybe up to a Strong wind effect: extinguishes unprotected flames, Fort DC 10 or Tiny and smaller creatures are Knocked Down... bye-bye familiars!)

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Heh, interesting idea.

Blind, Blind Otu

Knight Otu said:

The nullification effect might be tough to incorporate - in one Rokugan book, there was a nezumi PrC that has a similar ability which could be used as a basis, though.

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Or, I could look at something that is much more recent... the Tome of Horrors II! The time flayer has basically the same ability I am looking for:

Tome of Horrors II said:

Unmaking (Su): An opponent slain by a time flayer is unmade-erased from the very fabric of time. No memories or recollections of the unmade creature exist anywhere in reality. Past events the creature was responsible for are now contributed to an unknown-even if they recently took place. For example, suppose a gret hero saved a kingdom from certain doom and then suffers the unmaking. The kingdom is still safe, but no one can quite recall who saved it.
A creature that suffered the unmaking cannot be raised, resurrected or restored to live by any means-not even a wish can restore an unmade creature. Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore one who suffers this fate.

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Ouch! That Unmaking sounds perhaps a little too nasty. Not much fun for the PC's either!

"Ok Joe... your great hero Tul-Kan you've been playing for five years has just been Nullified. Please hand over your character sheet and all your notes. Anyone who even mentions his name anymore will be docked XP. It's as if he never even existed. As if he never saved the world on numerous occasions and even gave his own life in battle to defeat the Great Evil Blarg. Never happened..."

If we do go with this, I think it should be reserved for very high-CR versions of the dragon, where the PCs actually have a *chance* of getting that "direct intervention of a deity". Even then, they may have to do some serious meta-gaming to get it...

Since the astral is the conduit for teleportation, I think that teleportation would be necessary. Think of it as the dragon retracting its skin onto the astral for a split-second before projecting it back into the material.

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Not thinking radical enough What if the skin is a rift? Think of it as being like the surface of a pool of water. If you try to pull the surface *underneath* the water, you no longer *have* a surface. It's the interface between the material and astral plane that defines our dragon's skin.

How about this for a compromise... Dragons are reptilian, right? Reptilians shed their skin. In our case, this would leave behind a rapidly decaying gate to the astral plane (which could make a great material component for various gate spells and items, provided you can preserve it quickly enough). For the dragon, shedding it's skin is painless the first time around (perhaps a full-round action?), but if it has to do so several times in a row (say, more than 1/week) it takes damage. I kinda like monsters to have interesting drawbacks...

Alternatively, perhaps the dragon could "shift" it's skin to be a rift to a different plane! The plane of Shadow perhaps, or the Ethereal, or even one of the elemental planes. Anyone trying to go through the dragon from the astral plane would no longer land back in the material, but in this third plane. Could be a good tactic for the dragon if the party decides to attack it from the astral and material simultaneously. PCs could potentially wind up on three separate planes, with the dragon itself as their only means of transportation.

The nullification effect would be reserved for wyrm or great wyrm dragons, and only if the character is killed by the breath weapon. Plus, the text for unmaking is not necessarily the same we will use for unmaking.

Conaill said:

It's as if he never even existed. As if he never saved the world on numerous occasions and even gave his own life in battle to defeat the Great Evil Blarg. Never happened..."

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Actually, did happen, but no one remembers.

Your other suggestions also sound nice. Either way, this dragon will be very evil...