Selling items : illogical rule ?

[GnomeWorks]

Why would a PC sit in a shop all day trying to pawn the lvl 3 magic item he found when he could go explore more ancient ruins and find 20 times as many treasures during the time he would have wasted sitting in shop?

Because there is a lot less of a risk of death when trying to sell things in a pawn shop?

 

[darkrose50]

I don't think you "get" economics. Seriously, go read a text book.

I understand them enough to earn money on the stock market. I understand them enough to go to GenCon, and come back with hundreds of dollars more, sometimes even over a thousand dollars more than the cost of GenCon (pass, food, gas, hotel, and toys). I make a killing in every MMORPG I play. I always have the gold I need to buy whatever I need in WOW (from the economy by crafting what is in demand, or buying low, and selling high). For someone who does not understand economics I do very well with economics.

What exactly don’t I understand? I can buy things for more or less than 1.1 to 1.4 the crafting cost. I can sell things for more or less than 0.2 the crafting cost. I do so all the time. More often than not I make money.

As a side point (not directed at you) not everything that can be sold in real life is an art object (or whatever they call it) worth 100% of its value. That rule is in there to make portable wealth fun, and I don’t think it was placed into the rules to balance anything economically.

 

[Kraydak]

I am sorry but I do not buy this premise. I'd think that adventurers and soldiers who lived long enough to be able to afford magic would be a fraction of an already small market. Most buyers would be collectors or wealthy people making vanity purchases.

A low-percentage of the population market, WHEN TOTALLED OVER THE ENTIRE WORLD, give you are really, really big market.

Also, to reference your much earlier post, I do not think that people who view magic items as tools would be inclined to purchase them used from shifty, homeless, adventurer types. Since their lives depend on these items they would be more likely to buy them from a reputable merchant who has a reputation at stake. They would buy them at 100% from the person who bought it from your character at 20%.

Two comments:
(1) the people who buy magic items are precisely the same, shifty, homeless, adventurers who sell them.
(2) magic item ID is easy. Like, really really easy. You don't need to sweat the whole reputation thing.

Were high-end soldiering my trade I would not buy used body armor. And I wouldn’t buy my H&K MP5 from a wandering South African mercenary. I would happily pay full retail since it is so important.

RL body armor degrades over time. RL body armor quality won't be immediately determinable (defects in ceramic plates, unless they are catastrophic, will take intense, and possible destructive, testing to find). In 4e, magic items are fully IDable in 5 minutes and don't degrade. Those *would* be valid points *if* 4e had cursed items/expensive magic item identification.

For adventures who consider magic items tools it is unlikely that the specific tool they need to accommodate their specific skills and tactics are available on the secondary market. They would likely have them made by a trusted associate or mage for hire. Even if the item was available, they would probably not trust their lives and a ton of money on the honesty of a bunch of adventurers, who even if well-intentioned may not fully know or understand they item they are selling. They would go to a merchant they trust.

Again, once you SUM OVER THE ENTIRE WORLD, someone is going to be selling the item you want (and buying the item you want to sell). You might by lazy and use a broker, but the extremely rapid turn-around will drop to achievable profit margin the broker can charge. Remember, we aren't *actually* in an MMORPG. Your character (probably, setting dependent I suppose) won't respawn on death, and will probably value staying alive over a few extra days at the market (unlike an MMORPG character, who NEVER risks permanent death or item loss).

Finally, the value of the item is not interchangeable since the market is so small. The price of the Wand +3 may be astronomical since there are currently two powerful Warlocks looking for a wand. Once these guys get their wands the price would drop dramatically. To reference your earlier machine tool example, a propriety set of machine tools would be worth a fortune if one of a few potential purchasers were looking to buy one. They would be worthless otherwise.

Much of this is moot, however, in the context of the Skill Challenge. You can find the Warlock who wants the wand, or the company looking for the machine tools. You just have to role play it out. Otherwise you dump it for 20%

Again, the market is huge. It *would* be diffuse (and effectively small) if travel wasn't easy. Travel is, however easy. At high enough level that a single world doesn't support a full market, you can go to the City of Bronze and visit markets that serve the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE.

Extreme mobility (an adventurer staple, boosted absurdly in 4e) means that a theoretically small market (adventurers trading magic items) becomes a huge market.

 

[Danceofmasks]

You may wish to reread your DMG, if you have one. I'd point you to the page, but if you've missed something as basic as the multiple places where it states that DMs can change the rules, you may have missed some other fairly basic things as well.

You are correct that there's no rule zero right up front. Instead, it's been meshed into the philosophy of the rules presented along with a new caveat: you're not a DM if you drive away the players.

Counterpoint .. you're not a DM if you make changes that ruin the game, intended or not.
The rules allow a DM to make judgement calls when memory fails or the rules don't cover a situation.
The rules allow a DM to create monsters or incorporate new stuff he made up.

The rules does not allow a DM to change the rules.
That's the difference here.

Reminds me of a Mage: the Ascension game I played in, where the storyteller (in first session) allowed PCs to roll dodge even though they used their actions to do other stuff.
Seems innocuous?
It made anyone with a high dodge pool nigh invincible (vs. dodgeable attacks), and that one little thing altered the fundamental dynamics of the entire system.

 

[darkrose50]

I am sorry but I do not buy this premise. I'd think that adventurers and soldiers who lived long enough to be able to afford magic would be a fraction of an already small market. Most buyers would be collectors or wealthy people making vanity purchases.

I would like to assume that there is a demand for magical items. In my mind a feudalistic magical medieval society would have a demand for magical items such as armor, weapons, and healing. The knights, lords, guilds, and wealthy merchants would buy these items. A lord would equip most knights with mundane items, and some knights with magical gear. A 15th level knight would likely be gifted some magical gear by his lord, while a 1st level knight would not.

Also, to reference your much earlier post, I do not think that people who view magic items as tools would be inclined to purchase them used from shifty, homeless, adventurer types. Since their lives depend on these items they would be more likely to buy them from a reputable merchant who has a reputation at stake. They would buy them at 100% from the person who bought it from your character at 20%.

This is why you have people who can apprise things. This is why you get a mage you trust to check out the magical item. If you buy expensive things, then you get these things checked out by an expert. I would buy an expensive anything that was checked out by an expert I trust.

Were high-end soldiering my trade I would not buy used body armor. And I wouldn’t buy my H&K MP5 from a wandering South African mercenary. I would happily pay full retail since it is so important.

I would bring the gun to an expert gunsmith, and have it looked at. I would clean it up, oil it up, and do whatever is done with a weapon to make it work nice. Then I would try it out on the shooting range. Alternatively I would know about guns being a high-end soldier and use my expert judgment, as well as those of my high-end soldier buddies who want my gear to work proper.

For adventures who consider magic items tools it is unlikely that the specific tool they need to accommodate their specific skills and tactics are available on the secondary market. They would likely have them made by a trusted associate or mage for hire. Even if the item was available, they would probably not trust their lives and a ton of money on the honesty of a bunch of adventurers, who even if well-intentioned may not fully know or understand they item they are selling. They would go to a merchant they trust.

Or have the item looked at by a merchant they trust.

Finally, the value of the item is not interchangeable since the market is so small. The price of the Wand +3 may be astronomical since there are currently two powerful Warlocks looking for a wand. Once these guys get their wands the price would drop dramatically. To reference your earlier machine tool example, a propriety set of machine tools would be worth a fortune if one of a few potential purchasers were looking to buy one. They would be worthless otherwise.

I would hope that price is set by demand as a default. Some items are more expensive to craft than demand, but that should not be the rule as a default for everything.

Much of this is moot, however, in the context of the Skill Challenge. You can find the Warlock who wants the wand, or the company looking for the machine tools. You just have to role play it out. Otherwise you dump it for 20%

There is no rule for role-playing it out. Role-playing it out would unbalance the wealth of a given character in a group. Same for skill changes. For the record I would be fine with either.

 

[Grabuto138]

I understand them enough to earn money on the stock market. I understand them enough to go to GenCon, and come back with hundreds of dollars more, sometimes even over a thousand dollars more than the cost of GenCon (pass, food, gas, hotel, and toys). I make a killing in every MMORPG I play. I always have the gold I need to buy whatever I need in WOW (from the economy by crafting what is in demand, or buying low, and selling high). For someone who does not understand economics I do very well with economics.

What exactly don’t I understand? I can buy things for more or less than 1.1 to 1.4 the crafting cost. I can sell things for more or less than 0.2 the crafting cost. I do so all the time. More often than not I make money.

As a side point (not directed at you) not everything that can be sold in real life is an art object (or whatever they call it) worth 100% of its value. That rule is in there to make portable wealth fun, and I don’t think it was placed into the rules to balance anything economically.

I think the point is that macroeconomics is a bit different, and understanding how to work eBay or even game the stock market doesn’t imply knowledge of macroeconomics (not that I am particularly knowledgeable). Over the course of this thread there have been many examples of why, in particular markets analogous to the fictional magic market, the 20%/100% paradigm is reasonable.

Maybe what you may be missing is that, when you sell something at the Con or on eBay, you are actually acting as the merchant selling the item, not as the player who sells it to the merchant for 20%. When you hand wave the sale and take 20% you are analogous to the person who sells their old Star Wars guys to a toy dealer for a fraction of their listed value. When you sell your Star Wars guys yourself through eBay you are engaged in a SKILL CHALLENGE, and make whatever the DM decides based on the parameters of the challenge.

As a side note, since the players can expect to earn some treasure when they adventure, it works out nicely since the value above 20% that the players earn acts the treasure reward for the adventure and, over time, a DM can keep everything balanced.

 

[darkrose50]

No mater what we talk about, or how long we talk about it the rule boils down to choices.

Q: Do I have the choice to sell an item I found for anything other than 20% of what it costs to have the item crafted.
A: No I do not.

Now we can house rule it. We can hope that we get a DM who does not think you are trying to pull a fast one when you make a 20 charisma, maxed diplomacy character, who then tries to earn more than 20% of what it costs to have the item crafted. I would think this character would be able to sell crap to idiots who want to buy crap all day long. But it would imbalance things if he did just that, and used the profits to buy magic items.

As a DM I would set a limit on how many magical items could be equipped at a given time based on the crafting cost, and the level of the character. I would remove the limits on the amount of gold that could be earned. That way a player can spend gold on anything not magical equipment and not mess with his power level, because he could earn more gold than the packet system says he could. As it stands now if a character spends gold on anything not magical equipment he is stupid. I think this is stupid.

 

[Grabuto138]

I would like to assume that there is a demand for magical items. In my mind a feudalistic magical medieval society would have a demand for magical items such as armor, weapons, and healing. The knights, lords, guilds, and wealthy merchants would buy these items. A lord would equip most knights with mundane items, and some knights with magical gear. A 15th level knight would likely be gifted some magical gear by his lord, while a 1st level knight would not.

How many 15th level knights are there? How likely is the lord to go to a secondary market to purchase expensive items rather than relying on a trusted vendor? Do the lords and guild have trusted crafters to make exactly what they want? Do rich people tend to use eBay for expensive, important purchases or do they tend to pay full retail in order to assure a good product from a trusted vendor?

This is why you have people who can apprise things. This is why you get a mage you trust to check out the magical item. If you buy expensive things, then you get these things checked out by an expert. I would buy an expensive anything that was checked out by an expert I trust.

I would bring the gun to an expert gunsmith, and have it looked at. I would clean it up, oil it up, and do whatever is done with a weapon to make it work nice. Then I would try it out on the shooting range. Alternatively I would know about guns being a high-end soldier and use my expert judgment, as well as those of my high-end soldier buddies who want my gear to work proper.

And so we are forced to introduce the concept of opportunity cost into an already confused conversation. Time spent screwing around with a used weapon from a dubious vendor (taking it to a gunsmith, trying it at the range etc.) is time not spent training, resting and hanging out with the kids. I would buy my weapon retail and focus on the important things. This also assumes that the wandering salesman would let you borrow the weapon to have it appraised and to try it out. Wait, this sounds like a SKILL CHALLENGE, hanging out with the rich lord for a day will he proofs the magic sword you are selling. Cool.

I would hope that price is set by demand as a default. Some items are more expensive to craft than demand, but that should not be the rule for everything.

I don’t understand what you mean. Sorry.

There is no rule for role-playing it out. Role-playing it out would unbalance the wealth of a given character in a group. Same for skill changes. For the record I would be fine with either.

The rules start on page 70 of the DMG. Since a skill challenge is an adventure, and adventures often have material rewards, it would ultimately be balanced.

 

[darkrose50]

How many 15th level knights are there?

I am unsure if the rules say how many of what level folks there are in a population.

How likely is the lord to go to a secondary market to purchase expensive items rather than relying on a trusted vendor? Do the lords and guild have trusted crafters to make exactly what they want?

I suppose it would depend on how many enchanters there were in a given area. Even if they had some about they could buy at near 20%-110% and not at 110-140%

I would choose 20%-100% with a trusted mage checking them over.

Do rich people tend to use eBay for expensive, important purchases or do they tend to pay full retail in order to assure a good product from a trusted vendor?

I would. People do.

. . . Hey! Who says a PC can’t have a trusted reputation?

And so we are forced to introduce the concept of opportunity cost into an already confused conversation. Time spent screwing around with a used weapon from a dubious vendor (taking it to a gunsmith, trying it at the range etc.) is time not spent training, resting and hanging out with the kids. I would buy my weapon retail and focus on the important things. This also assumes that the wandering salesman would let you borrow the weapon to have it appraised and to try it out. Wait, this sounds like a SKILL CHALLENGE, hanging out with the rich lord for a day will he proofs the magic sword you are selling. Cool.

Okay some would, others would not.

I don’t understand what you mean. Sorry.

Sometimes the cost of making something is higher than the trade value of that item.

The rules start on page 70 of the DMG. Since a skill challenge is an adventure, and adventures often have material rewards, it would ultimately be balanced.

Cool!

 

[coldpheasant]

it's about the residuum

The existence of magical portals does not assume ease of travel. The relatively cheap cost of a portal ritual does not assume that anyone is willing to perform the ritual for you.

There are plenty of submarines out there and more than a few spaceships, but it is unlikely you will ever have a chance to visit the depths of the ocean or the moon.

Portals exist in the default world, but the few people that are capable of traveling through them or opening them up are unlikely to waste their time opening them up all day for random merchants and their magic-item laden mules to pass through. On top of that, ritualists probably do not have a phone book filled with all the addresses to every portal in the world either. More likely there are hubs... A knows the address to B and C and D. B knows the address to A and C. C knows the address to A and B. D leads to an ancient ruined temple somewhere in the vacinity of C. None of them have a clue how to send you to I, J, or K across the sea. None of the folks at I, J, and K can send you to A, B, or C either. None of the folks at X, Y, or W have ever ventured across the mountains and discovered I, J, or K.

You get the idea, I hope.

Points of light. This means no internet, no ebay, no interconnected global auction house. Magic items are ancient treasures, family heirlooms, and personalized weapons for a fringe market of wealthy combat-oriented individuals, collectors of rarities, and a few powerful enchanters dabbling in the craft of enchantment. A magic item is worth only it's supply of residuum unless a specific demand arises for the item itself. That kind of specialized demand is the reason for the high prices. at the merchant.