Selling items : illogical rule ?

[Grabuto138]

A low-percentage of the population market, WHEN TOTALLED OVER THE ENTIRE WORLD, give you are really, really big market.



Two comments:
(1) the people who buy magic items are precisely the same, shifty, homeless, adventurers who sell them.
(2) magic item ID is easy. Like, really really easy. You don't need to sweat the whole reputation thing.



RL body armor degrades over time. RL body armor quality won't be immediately determinable (defects in ceramic plates, unless they are catastrophic, will take intense, and possible destructive, testing to find). In 4e, magic items are fully IDable in 5 minutes and don't degrade. Those *would* be valid points *if* 4e had cursed items/expensive magic item identification.



Again, once you SUM OVER THE ENTIRE WORLD, someone is going to be selling the item you want (and buying the item you want to sell). You might by lazy and use a broker, but the extremely rapid turn-around will drop to achievable profit margin the broker can charge. Remember, we aren't *actually* in an MMORPG. Your character (probably, setting dependent I suppose) won't respawn on death, and will probably value staying alive over a few extra days at the market (unlike an MMORPG character, who NEVER risks permanent death or item loss).



Again, the market is huge. It *would* be diffuse (and effectively small) if travel wasn't easy. Travel is, however easy. At high enough level that a single world doesn't support a full market, you can go to the City of Bronze and visit markets that serve the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE.

Extreme mobility (an adventurer staple, boosted absurdly in 4e) means that a theoretically small market (adventurers trading magic items) becomes a huge market.

While I think your interpretation of how the world might look given the teleportation circles is entirely plausible and defensible, it is not how my world would look or, I suspect, most campaigns.

Temples and Arcane academies will simply not allow their inner sanctums to be become magical bus terminals. They have priorities other than turning a buck and would not allow the traffic.

Becoming a Wizard is a long and difficult process demanding dedication and sacrifice. There are easier ways to become rich, if that is your goal. Wizards will not, as rule, have an interest in commerce and will not casually sell their services as a wage slave for a merchant guild. For the most part they will have contempt for the green grocers and money changers who do not appreciate or understand the refined art of magic. They are the theoretical physicists of the fantasy world. Certainly there will be exceptions, but they would be a plot hook rather than a foundation of the economic system.

Since the default system is “Points of Light,” and the world you describe is essentially a pro-globalization person’s wet and wildest dream, I think it is safe to assume that the global economy is less integrated than you imagine as a default campaign.

There are cursed items: “Some magic items might be a bit harder to identify, such as cursed or nonstandard items, or powerful magical artifacts.” PH 223.

The few magic dealers are quirky characters. They are Comic Book Guy, or Johnny Depp from the 9th Gate. Finding them and using their services is a plot hook. Going to the City of Brass is also a plot hook.

Like I said, I think your interpretation is plausible, but we should not assume it as a default condition.

ED: I should have just said "ditto coldpheasant."

 

[Grabuto138]

I would also like to add that I have been lurking at Enworld for years and, too often, when people have significant disagreements over this many pages it devolves into snarkiness and name calling. Everyone participating in this thread deserves credit and thanks for remaining civil and interesting.

 

[Goumindong]

I understand them enough to earn money on the stock market. I understand them enough to go to GenCon, and come back with hundreds of dollars more, sometimes even over a thousand dollars more than the cost of GenCon (pass, food, gas, hotel, and toys). I make a killing in every MMORPG I play. I always have the gold I need to buy whatever I need in WOW (from the economy by crafting what is in demand, or buying low, and selling high). For someone who does not understand economics I do very well with economics.

That is not economics. That is being a skilled trader. Its like saying "i know about managing baseball teams, look at how well I play first base"

You might do well playing as an individual actor in an economy. But that only means you are a rational actor and are good at bartering.

 

[webrunner]

Because there is a lot less of a risk of death when trying to sell things in a pawn shop?

If you're worried about the risk of death, perhaps adventurer isn't the occupation for you.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Don't forget that there's the issue of expected gear by level.

See, you can't upgrade a +2 longsword .. so .. the only people who want +2 longswords are those who need to replace their +1 weapon.
Worthless to those who already have 1 or are of a higher level, and lower level folk are scraping for cash.

 

[Jhulae]

All I know is that I want to play "Dungeons & Dragons", not "Storefronts & Shopkeeps".

That being said, sure, it'd be great if some publisher put out some trade/commerce rules for people who's campaigns somehow need those finer points.

However, I really don't see the PCs (being Heroic, even at low levels) driving caravans so much as guarding them.

 

[erik_the_guy]

Why do you seriously need to argue about this?
The rule says that the players can sell the item at 1/5 value so that they can do that at any time if they just want the item gone.
Ex:
You give your old plate mail to the local blacksmith for 1/5 value because he will only use it for scrap metal, or modify it (using time and money) to fit someone else.

If you want more money, and the situation justifies it, you should get more money. Rather than just liquidating your inventory, you could try something.
Ex:
You sell your old plate mail for double its market value to a desperate buyer in an area where metal armor is hard to find.

Simple rules, many exceptions, that's the first rule in the PHB. 1/5 is a simple rule. Double price is an exception.
The reason that the DM is a human, and not a computer, is that his/her intuition can account for things that a rulebook can't. You can try anything in D&D, that's why you are playing this and not WoW. If your DM does not allow exceptions to the rules when they make sense, get a new one.

 

[King-Panda]

Since at least 3E, D&D's economy has been haywire. I really wish they could have made it more robust, but it didn't happen, so no big deal. I'm a big boy, I'll get over it. Here's how I plan on explaining the 100%/20% rule, at least until my players leave the material plane.

Everyone who deals in magical items knows that when disenchanted, they return only 20% of their residuum. The other 80% is lost in the process of making the item. The economy in my game is going to assume the market for magic items hasn't changed much in the past few decades, simply to keep the 100%/20% rule plausible.
A merchant selling a specific magical item finds a buyer about 20% of the time, for a myriad of reasons I won't bother to write out in detail. These merchants don't mind too much, seeing as how they charge 5 times as much (market price) to make up for the loss. The majority of their profit comes from disenchanting those 4 other items they don't sell for residuum.

Now, I'd like to change this, (mostly because it's retarded) but I'm not going to. The economy is set up to keep player wealth in line with their level, and if I start changing stuff around, I'm going to have to **** with their treasure gain to keep it all balanced (why bother when wizards went to such great lengths making loot so simple to track now?). I plan on telling my players this if they ask why they can't get a better deal on their unused items. I doubt they will want to trade a loss of loot for more gold, so I'm not too worried (may not be true in your group, be warned).

I'm not sure how I'm going to explain this economy when they start traveling to other planes, where magical items and the creatures who wield them are going to be much more common. Maybe I will end up changing the system then. I guess my point is, for those of you who see this system as totally bonkers, I agree. But it's made to revolve around the player wealth:level ratio, and if you want to screw with it, realize you're gonna have to change a whole pile of other crap too just to keep the players in check.

 

[Sashi]

The system is absolutely not bonkers from a game perspective. If you implement a real economy that makes sense in any way, the players can fairly easily game it to get filthy rich, and gain a level-inappropriate amount of equipment (not good for game balance).

So, basically, if you implement ways for them to gain lots of money, or upgrade equipment in new ways, you have to screw them out of that same money in some way (reduced treasure allotments, money sinks, arrested and fined, etc etc).

You've basically got the DM enforcing status quo on the players, while the players futilely struggle to overcome it. Which is no better than having a stupid 20% rule.

 

[hong]

If you want to make an adventure out of finding a worthy buyer for that +6 sword of mighty squicking, go right ahead. The default rule is for when you want to dispose of stuff without going to the trouble of playing it out.