Doing the GSL. Who?

JohnRTroy

Adventurer
I agree with the NO, but with a caveat.

I think Wizards is aware of the copyright status and prior court cases, and I suspect they are aware that it can be done.

I truly think WoTC is more worried about the OGL than YCCGS (you can't copyright game stats). Two things about the OGL appear to bother Wizards Legal (and perhaps marketing). First, the "viral nature" allows other publishers to reproduce anything marked as open, which lead to the free SRD references. I strongly suspect they don't want their content being commoditized, which is why after Unearthed Arcana they've pretty much kept everything closed. I also suspect the fact that the license has a "safe harbour" clause and no revocation clauses is troubling to them.

I truly don't think Wizards cares about suppressing successful publishers, but they do want to reserve the right to shut a publisher down who might be hurting the brand, likely after the Book of Erotic Fantasy fiasco. They don't want to do it to 98% of the publishers, just the 2% that get out of line.

I suspect that if you are using the YCCGS argument, WoTC will only try to shut you down if you are harming the brand (graphic sex, for instance), violating the trademark, or using their core "private IP" (those beasts, for instance, not in any SRD, or writing an adventure in one of their campagin settings).

Based on the no OGL clause in the GSL, however, I suspect anybody who attempts to mix 4e with OGL--especially any attempt to create a "generic version" of D&D 4e and release it under the OGL will feel their lawyers' wrath. It might cost them money, but seeing all the "no OGL" statements in the GSL make me think it's a battle worth fighting to them.

That's why you'll probably see most publishers who want to use 4e rules, use the YCCGS method and give up the OGL. (3e publishers like Paizo have more protection under the OGL and it would be foolish of them not to take it). I don't know what Goodman games is up to, but assuming they aren't using the GSL, I suspect they are destroying old inventory to no longer use the OGL for extra legal protection. Thinking from a business perspective, it would be very foolish to try to use the OGL with 4e knowing Wizards' reaction to it.

The most troubling thing to me is that Wizards doesn't seem to care about promoting the use of the GSL. I would think they could have offered more incentives to publishers. In addition to some clauses being a little to restrictive in the license, maybe they should have done some kind of co-op advertising agreement or something similar to add value to the brand name being used. WoTC could promote their GSL partners as "truly official and authorized" and considering that the brand name is still powerful, it might have a good effect.
 

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Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
I truly don't think Wizards cares about suppressing successful publishers, but they do want to reserve the right to shut a publisher down who might be hurting the brand, likely after the Book of Erotic Fantasy fiasco. They don't want to do it to 98% of the publishers, just the 2% that get out of line.

At the risk of my head exploding from more JRT commentary... Please explain how the OGL is capable of "hurting the brand."
 

JohnRTroy

Adventurer
At the risk of my head exploding from more JRT commentary... Please explain how the OGL is capable of "hurting the brand."

Please stop with the personal attacks Wulf. Attack the argument, not the person.

Any product that is compatible with (and marketed in the same stores with) D&D can hurt D&D. Whether is uses the trademark or not, if the game supplement is designed to be compatible with D&D, which is what BoEF was designed to be, the reputation of D&D can be tarnished.

The OGL itself doesn't hurt WoTC--but at least in their eyes, that "safe harbour" clause adds indemnification to the secondary publisher from lawsuits from WoTC. Because they opened up the 3e ruleset, they couldn't stop BoEF.

That's why I think they want to change that. They don't want the "safe harbour" clause. They want to reserve the right to legal action against any products like that.

At least that's my theory.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
Any product that is compatible with (and marketed in the same stores with) D&D can hurt D&D.

That doesn't answer the question. Even if I granted you the point (which I don't) it's possible to make compatible products with or without the OGL. In neither case is it possible for the OGL to intrude on the trademarks or the brand D&D.

Whether is uses the trademark or not, if the game supplement is designed to be compatible with D&D, which is what BoEF was designed to be, the reputation of D&D can be tarnished.

I assume you are familiar with the specifics of the BoEF fiasco. It is not irrelevant that it was intended to use the d20 logo, or that Valterra pushed the issue and deliberately hijacked/attacked the brand on the cover of his product, like this:

Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook, Third Edition, published by Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

The OGL itself doesn't hurt WoTC--but at least in their eyes, that "safe harbour" clause adds indemnification to the secondary publisher from lawsuits from WoTC. Because they opened up the 3e ruleset, they couldn't stop BoEF.

They couldn't stop it anyway. The OGL had nothing to do with it.

Revising (and now revoking) the d20 STL was the only necessary step to protecting the brand.

That's why I think they want to change that. They don't want the "safe harbour" clause. They want to reserve the right to legal action against any products like that.

At least that's my theory.

I love your crazy theories. I am poking you with the love stick. (I believe it's statted up in the BoEF.)

Personally, I'm going with Occam's Razor, here: WoTC doesn't want to compete against their own system (especially since so many 3PP have the chops to do so).
 

JohnRTroy

Adventurer
At the risk of my head exploding from more JRT commentary... Please explain how the OGL is capable of "hurting the brand."

Please stop with the personal attacks Wulf. Attack the argument, not the person.

Any product that is compatible with (and marketed in the same stores with) D&D can hurt D&D. Whether is uses the trademark or not, if the game supplement is designed to be compatible with D&D, which is what BoEF was designed to be, the reputation of D&D can be tarnished.

The OGL itself doesn't hurt WoTC--but at least in their eyes, that "safe harbour" clause adds indemnification to the secondary publisher from lawsuits from WoTC. Because they opened up the 3e ruleset, they couldn't stop BoEF.

That's why I think they want to change that. They don't want the "safe harbour" clause. They want to reserve the right to legal action against any products like that. At least that's my theory.
 

Please stop with the personal attacks Wulf. Attack the argument, not the person.
Folks on ENWorld have a real problem sometimes with determining what is and isn't a personal attack. Saying, "JRT's arguments cause my head to explode" does, in fact, attack your argument, not you. :confused:

Granted, it's not a very good counter argument in an of itself, but please don't run around crying "personal attack! personal attack!" when in fact it's nothing of the sort.
 


Brown Jenkin

First Post
Any product that is compatible with (and marketed in the same stores with) D&D can hurt D&D. Whether is uses the trademark or not, if the game supplement is designed to be compatible with D&D, which is what BoEF was designed to be, the reputation of D&D can be tarnished.

And my response here is: so what? The thing about the marketplace is that everyone is out for themselves. As a producer of a product it doesn't matter to me if my product has a secondary effect on someone else's product unless it costs me money as well. I'm not sure if your concern about D&D being tarnished is your personal opinion or if it merely an explanation in your mind as to WotC motives. WotC can complain all they want about other companies producing compatible game materials but unless trademark or copyrights are actually violated they have no legal recourse. Sure they can sue, but Hasbro's lawyers have already tried that in the Monopoly case and failed. Tarnishing a brand reputation is not a valid trademark violation. Trademarks are to prevent consumer confusion and producing bad compatible products doesn't cause legally actionable brand confusion if the compatible material is properly labeled.
 

JohnRTroy

Adventurer
I'm not sure if your concern about D&D being tarnished is your personal opinion or if it merely an explanation in your mind as to WotC motives. WotC can complain all they want about other companies producing compatible game materials but unless trademark or copyrights are actually violated they have no legal recourse.

I'm not really speaking for myself, I am trying to see the other side of the argument--what reasons WoTC had for replacing the OGL with the GSL, and adding the anti-OGL clauses to that GSL.

It's important to at least understand the other side's viewpoint, even if you don't agree with it.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I'm not really speaking for myself, I am trying to see the other side of the argument--what reasons WoTC had for replacing the OGL with the GSL, and adding the anti-OGL clauses to that GSL.

It's important to at least understand the other side's viewpoint, even if you don't agree with it.

WotC's motives seem clear: they want less competition, and to better be able to make third-parties create products that complement D&D, rather than compete with it. It's not about "tarnishing" the brand, it's about what makes them more money.
 

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