Challenge the Players, Not the Characters' Stats

[jensun]

Probably the default assumption of 4th edition that you don't need to play through a skill challenge, but can just roll the dice through it, and then IF every party member fails you would need to worry with thinking through it.

This is not the default assumption.

 

[justanobody]

Then what is? Can you not just roll the dice through skill challenges?

 

[Cadfan]

Then what is? Can you not just roll the dice through skill challenges?

That works exactly as well as rolling a bunch of d20s and asking if you won the fight, before you know who or what you're fighting.

 

[justanobody]

That works exactly as well as rolling a bunch of d20s and asking if you won the fight, before you know who or what you're fighting.

What is the minimum a PC needs to do to succeed/win a skill challenge?

 

[mhacdebhandia]

The crux of it, though, is this: challenge the player, not the character's stats.

Yeah, frankly, I couldn't dislike that style of play more. If playing Fourth Edition means I won't be playing with people who like that style of game, that's fantastic news for me.

When I play a roleplaying game, I want the game to be about my character's experience in the world - not about testing my problem-solving skills. I don't give a damn about whether or not I can answer a riddle or think my way out of a sticky situation, because I am not there!

That sort of stuff just bores me to tears in a roleplaying game. If I want my own skills to be challenged, I'll play a video game.

 

[Cadfan]

What is the minimum a PC needs to do to succeed/win a skill challenge?

Exactly the same thing a PC in 3e needs to do to succeed/win a challenge that involves the use of skills.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Yeah, frankly, I couldn't dislike that style of play more. If playing Fourth Edition means I won't be playing with people who like that style of game, that's fantastic news for me.

When I play a roleplaying game, I want the game to be about my character's experience in the world - not about testing my problem-solving skills. I don't give a damn about whether or not I can answer a riddle or think my way out of a sticky situation, because I am not there!

That sort of stuff just bores me to tears in a roleplaying game. If I want my own skills to be challenged, I'll play a video game.

To me, that extreme is just as bad as challenging the player only. Why show up? Just generate a list of attack, damage and skill rolls and have them applied for your character as the situations occur. Same effect.

 

[Freakohollik]

Here is difference that causes the argument.

In a 4e adventure against the suggested ELs, you can expect that you'll survive anything you encounter. Sure there is the supposed "tactical play", but my experience with the game has been that its really easy to choose actions that win the battle. If you accidentally do some boneheaded things, you can change tactics and win, but you'll end up resting earlier. In that way the tactical play doesn't actually change the long term results.

In a 1e adventure, if you do something stupid, you're dead. If you try and explore every room the dungeon, you're dead. If you often leap before you look, you're dead. The best way to survive 1e adventures is lots of caution, divination, henchmen, listening at doors, sending in henchmen, and so on. Luck is also very helpful. How to survive is not spelled out to you on your character sheet. You have to use your player skill to figure out a strategy to navigate the dungeon.

Yeah, frankly, I couldn't dislike that style of play more. If playing Fourth Edition means I won't be playing with people who like that style of game, that's fantastic news for me.

When I play a roleplaying game, I want the game to be about my character's experience in the world - not about testing my problem-solving skills. I don't give a damn about whether or not I can answer a riddle or think my way out of a sticky situation, because I am not there!

That sort of stuff just bores me to tears in a roleplaying game. If I want my own skills to be challenged, I'll play a video game.

Are you saying that the game should not use player skill at all? If you don't want your skill to factor in at all, you'll have to have your DM make all decisions for you. In fact, you don't even need to be involved at all.

 

[MerricB]

In a 4e adventure against the suggested ELs, you can expect that you'll survive anything you encounter. Sure there is the supposed "tactical play", but my experience with the game has been that its really easy to choose actions that win the battle. If you accidentally do some boneheaded things, you can change tactics and win, but you'll end up resting earlier. In that way the tactical play doesn't actually change the long term results.

In a 1e adventure, if you do something stupid, you're dead. If you try and explore every room the dungeon, you're dead. If you often leap before you look, you're dead. The best way to survive 1e adventures is lots of caution, divination, henchmen, listening at doors, sending in henchmen, and so on. Luck is also very helpful. How to survive is not spelled out to you on your character sheet. You have to use your player skill to figure out a strategy to navigate the dungeon.

I'm sorry... how are 4e and 1e different again? Certainly, 4e doesn't have that "Oops, I'm dead" all the time from single bad actions, but you can certainly have your PC die from stupid play. Nor is every encounter an assured win (see Irontooth). If you assume that all 4e adventures use APL=EL encounters, you're dead wrong.

Cheers!

 

[Cadfan]

In a 1e adventure, if you do something stupid, you're dead. If you try and explore every room the dungeon, you're dead. If you often leap before you look, you're dead. The best way to survive 1e adventures is lots of caution, divination, henchmen, listening at doors, sending in henchmen, and so on. Luck is also very helpful. How to survive is not spelled out to you on your character sheet. You have to use your player skill to figure out a strategy to navigate the dungeon.

So what you're saying is, 1e is what Paranoia would be if it didn't realize it was a farce.