Castle Zagyg - The Upper Works (review)

[Treebore]

I don't hang out at TLG but, rather, saw those claims in threads at other forums (RPGNet, mostly). Namely, back in 2005 and 2006, the claims were that the book was in final layout and/or almost ready for production. More recently it was mentioned that they were shooting for a GenCon 2008 release. Currently, TLG associate Breakdaddy says that the projected release date is GenCon 2009.



That's the official stance, which I think is wise. That said, several TLG affiliates seem to have had a hard time adhering to that official position on forums other than their own.



Gary and Rob, by accounts from both, played in and ran each other's sections of Castle Greyhawk as part of the original Greyhawk Campaign.



Mutually combining multiple independent works that exist within a shared setting to create one whole work that was actually played as such (regardless of whether or not it was published) is about as collaborative as "collaborative" can get. Frankly, if that's not collaborative design, then nothing is.



Well, perhaps you've heard of Robilar? Robilar was, by all accounts, Kuntz's player character and in-game alter-ego, named after Rob Kuntz, much as Zagig Yragerne was Gary Gygax's alter-ego. So Rob Kuntz is mentioned in the canon. Indeed, he's a rather large part of it.

Yeah, Breakdaddy lives near and games with the Trolls. I know Steve has stated a hope for a Christmas release, but I admit I have thought GenCon 2009 was likely a more realistic expectation. So I can believe Breakdaddy is likely correct on it being a realistic date.

As for the CKG, there was a point when they were working on it, then their ideas for it took a major change. This also coincided with one of the Trolls dealing with multiple surgeries his little girl ended up having to go through for over a year. Which is one of the biggest reasons the CKG sat still long enough to go through such a concept change. Plus even we "fans" didn't know about the daughters surgeries until a few months ago when they finally decided to let us know.

Breakdaddy likely knew since he games with them, but he obviously kept his mouth shut the whole time.

Still, they didn't claim, in any official capacity, a hard release date since their initial announced release date. They have posted "hoped for" time frames several times, including this past GenCon, but nothing has been officially stated.

Heck, Star SIEGE, released this past GenCon had an official release date of last March. So they recently burned themselves on a release date. So hopefully they will only give official dates when its coming back from the printers, when they print out of house.


As for Castle Zagyg and Gary and Rob, maybe you have mixed them together, but my think has always been Gary Gygax=Castle Z. RJK has never been part of that equation for me.

So even though I know they have collaborated, and maybe even ran things in each others "parts" of the Castle like you remember reading, but RJK has never been a creator of the castle for me. Its only been Gary's creation in my mind, so thats why I could care less about anything RJK did, or does. I simply do not consider anything he does to be "official" for the Castle.

I do know how Robilar came about, but again, its not Castle Robilar we are talking about, its Castle Zagyg.

If RJK wanted to do his own Castle Robilar, I would be interested. Only Castle Zagyg can be done by Gary Gygax. Now Gygax Games got rid of the only person who intimately knows what Gary wanted done, things never written in that bible. Now we won't get that vision, those unwritten ideas, those final inspirations Gary had and never wrote into that "bible", and only Ghul heard and knew about.

Now we only get what was written in that "bible" and how the new writers interpret those notes, and it saddens me greatly.

 

[grodog]

As for Castle Zagyg and Gary and Rob, maybe you have mixed them together, but my think has always been Gary Gygax=Castle Z. RJK has never been part of that equation for me.

So even though I know they have collaborated, and maybe even ran things in each others "parts" of the Castle like you remember reading, but RJK has never been a creator of the castle for me. Its only been Gary's creation in my mind, so thats why I could care less about anything RJK did, or does. I simply do not consider anything he does to be "official" for the Castle.

And that's perfectly reasonable for how you run your games and your version of the Castle, of course, Treebore, but....

If RJK wanted to do his own Castle Robilar, I would be interested. Only Castle Zagyg can be done by Gary Gygax. Now Gygax Games got rid of the only person who intimately knows what Gary wanted done, things never written in that bible. Now we won't get that vision, those unwritten ideas, those final inspirations Gary had and never wrote into that "bible", and only Ghul heard and knew about.

...but it sounds like you're saying that "I don't like RJK's work, and therefore he never really had anything to do with creating the original Castle Greyhawk"??---is that what you mean??

Now we only get what was written in that "bible" and how the new writers interpret those notes, and it saddens me greatly.

I'm hopeful that Rob will continue to publish his material from the Castle, and that we'll see whatever GG does publish (from the CZ Bible or not remains to be seen...), so that we'll eventually see all of the relevant original GH Castle material. Hopefully it won't take another 30 years for it all to appear, though

 

[grodog]

My mistake. I was indeed confusing the payment for those two products. I ordered Bottle City in January 2007 and I have since received it (after a rather long wait). The other one was ordered in June of the same year... so I was wrong about the two years, it's not even a year and a half. I'm clearly exceedingly impatient...

I never said that your impatience wasn't spot-on target, Nikosandros, I was just concerned that you haven't received your Bottle City order at all yet, based on your Jan 2007 comments. Unfortunately, everyone's still waiting on pre-orders for D&A/ERKAT, at the moment

 

[Nikosandros]

I never said that your impatience wasn't spot-on target, Nikosandros, I was just concerned that you haven't received your Bottle City order at all yet, based on your Jan 2007 comments. Unfortunately, everyone's still waiting on pre-orders for D&A/ERKAT, at the moment

I think it's a real pity that things aren't working with Pied Piper Publishing. Rob is a very creative person and I enjoy his products, but I can't hide my disappointment with how the things are going...

That said, I don't agree with Treebore. If Rob was willing and/or able to work in a regimented manner on CZ, I believe he would be extremely qualified for the project.

 

[howandwhy99]

I'll chime in and say I hope like crazy Jeff T. gets to be brought back on Castle Zagyg, no matter how much is left to publish. But if Mongoose or Gygax Games publish a version, I will be purchasing it too.

I'd compare it (hopefully) to Necromancer's City of Brass boxed set, which has enormous detail and is a great work. But it still isn't Kuntz's Hackmaster version of the City of Brass, which I consider the best purchase I've made in 3-4 years. Well, until Upper Works. I'm only halfway through, but it's pure Gygax. Reminds me of devouring Necropolis back in '92.

 

[Treebore]

...but it sounds like you're saying that "I don't like RJK's work, and therefore he never really had anything to do with creating the original Castle Greyhawk"??---is that what you mean??

I admit I am not a supporter of RJK, and his production problems just prove to me that I was wise to stay away from PPP. The only reason I ever checked out PPP was because of your and Lance's involvement.

However I have spent the last 20+ years thinking of Gary Gygax's Castle Greyhawk/Zagyg, not anything done by RJK. RJK is not part of the Castle Mytho's for me. He never has been. I have never been a fan of any of his work. Gary Gygax, for me, is to the Castle what he is to D&D itself.

With Gary gone the only way I can get the next best thing is to have the proven writer who has been working with Gary for the last few years. Not some Johny come lately, or someone who ran games in Gary's Castle, etc... I have done collaborative DMing. Just because we were collaborating doesn't mean he knew my version in full, nor did it mean I knew much of his. We were just able to make it work cohesively enough for it to be fun.

Gary and Jeff, though, talked and planned out specifics, to Gary's specifications/wishes/vision/etc...

 

[grodog]

I think it's a real pity that things aren't working with Pied Piper Publishing. Rob is a very creative person and I enjoy his products, but I can't hide my disappointment with how the things are going...

Agreed on all counts. I'm hopeful that once Rob gets back in the groove, that several mostly-done projects will be able to appear within a relatively short period of time. That would, hopefully, go a long way toward restoring confidence in his ability to produce PPP products.

 

[grodog]

I admit I am not a supporter of RJK, and his production problems just prove to me that I was wise to stay away from PPP. The only reason I ever checked out PPP was because of your and Lance's involvement.

However I have spent the last 20+ years thinking of Gary Gygax's Castle Greyhawk/Zagyg, not anything done by RJK. RJK is not part of the Castle Mytho's for me. He never has been. I have never been a fan of any of his work. Gary Gygax, for me, is to the Castle what he is to D&D itself.

I think I can understand that POV, even if it's not how I would characterize things myself.

And thanks for the compliment re: wanting to check out PPP due to me and Lance

 

[grodog]

I'd compare it (hopefully) to Necromancer's City of Brass boxed set, which has enormous detail and is a great work. But it still isn't Kuntz's Hackmaster version of the City of Brass, which I consider the best purchase I've made in 3-4 years.

RJK's full version of CoB is another project that could be wrapped up relatively quickly, with the right impetus behind it....

 

[Arnwyn]

once Rob gets back in the groove,

I don't know what this means...