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Designing a 2e Retro-Clone
- Thread starter Remathilis
- Start date
PapersAndPaychecks
First Post
Go the Swords & Wizardry route with AC -- provide both sets of tables, so groups can use ascending or descending AC, whichever they prefer. So you'd get orcs with AC 6/14.
Knightfall
World of Kulan DM
1.) I would say go for a tweaked version. Look towards Pathfinder but also look towards OSRIC. Definitely fix Strength and anything that is wonky, however.
2.) Do the core and worry about the expanded stuff later.
3.) I'd definitely like to see some Tome of Magic-based stuff. Don't worry about the splats in the beginning. Weapon groups would be a good idea to include at the beginning of the process, however.
4.) Make the idea of kits optional. Create a formula for creating kits and give a few examples but don't try to recreate them all. That would be A LOT of work.
5.) I'd use a skill-based system instead of NWP. Take the 2e skill system and expand it to be more like 3e.
6.) Upward scaling ACs. THAC0 is a pain in the butt. Come up with a conversion guideline for converting all those 2e ACs, however.
7.) This is a great idea. I'll be interested in seeing what you come up with.
2.) Do the core and worry about the expanded stuff later.
3.) I'd definitely like to see some Tome of Magic-based stuff. Don't worry about the splats in the beginning. Weapon groups would be a good idea to include at the beginning of the process, however.
4.) Make the idea of kits optional. Create a formula for creating kits and give a few examples but don't try to recreate them all. That would be A LOT of work.
5.) I'd use a skill-based system instead of NWP. Take the 2e skill system and expand it to be more like 3e.
6.) Upward scaling ACs. THAC0 is a pain in the butt. Come up with a conversion guideline for converting all those 2e ACs, however.
7.) This is a great idea. I'll be interested in seeing what you come up with.
Knightfall
World of Kulan DM
That's a great idea.
AnthonyRoberson
First Post
My Preference
My preference would be to structure a 2E Retro Clone similarly to the Revised 2E books from 1995. By that, I mean to include lots of Optional Rules as sidebars. For example, you include several different non-weapon proficiency systems and let the DM choose which one is right for his campaign.
My preference would be to structure a 2E Retro Clone similarly to the Revised 2E books from 1995. By that, I mean to include lots of Optional Rules as sidebars. For example, you include several different non-weapon proficiency systems and let the DM choose which one is right for his campaign.
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
My vote is against "Pathfinderizing" any such 2E clone.
The whole point of a clone is that it's a faithful reproduction of the original, flaws and all. People who'd play such a game are the ones who basically want to play 2E again - it's what they remember and enjoy. If you start introducing "fixes" into a clone of the game, that might work for you, and for some other people, but there'll be other players who'll trip over the changes, and not be happy about them.
Far better to re-create the game as it was (as much as you can) and release any changes in a separate file a la Unearthed Arcana, or if you must put them in the main book, in sidebars.
Clones are the product of nostalgia. I say don't tinker with that.
The whole point of a clone is that it's a faithful reproduction of the original, flaws and all. People who'd play such a game are the ones who basically want to play 2E again - it's what they remember and enjoy. If you start introducing "fixes" into a clone of the game, that might work for you, and for some other people, but there'll be other players who'll trip over the changes, and not be happy about them.
Far better to re-create the game as it was (as much as you can) and release any changes in a separate file a la Unearthed Arcana, or if you must put them in the main book, in sidebars.
Clones are the product of nostalgia. I say don't tinker with that.
Remathilis
Legend
Interesting to see peoples opinions so far.
The general consensus appears toward a "perfect" edition; 90% classic 2nd edition, 10% clarification, correction, and expansion.
So what might a "perfect" edition look like?
* Keep the ability score tables as is, with the possible exception of removing exceptional strength (%). I personally abhor it, but it is a legacy item. If the overwhelming support is to keep % str, I'd keep it.
* Races: Human, Dwarf, Gnome, Elf, Half-elf, Halfling, Half-orc and Half-ogre. The latter two got pushed in Skills & Powers, and would make decent additions. Other races (orc, goblin, hobgoblin, minotaur, bugbear, ogre, kobold, pixie, and tiefling) could be inlcuded later in an additional supplement. Races would be mostly left the same, with an additional human benefit for removing level limits.
* Classes: Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Cleric, Druid, Specialty Priest, Thief, Bard, Mage, Specialist. I'd really love to include the additional specialty priests from Spells & Magic/Faiths & Avatars (Mystic, Monk, Shaman, Crusader) but I'm unsure of the legality of doing so. Classes would be left pretty much as is, with a few tweaks for better gameplay (such a sphere access. An alternate druidic progression for non-heirophant druids would be provided. Dual-Classing would be eliminated (or regulated to a sidebar) and humans would be allowed demi-human style multi-classing (with restrictions). Wild-Mages, Assassins, and other 2e core-classes would have to come later.
* Weapon Proficiency and specialization would remain pretty close to core, but with the added rules from Combat & Tactics (unarmed combat, weapon mastery, etc)
* Non-Weapon Profs would remain similar to original concept, as glorified ability checks. Right now, I'm not sure in what direction to take them, other than towards a true skill system (akin to 3e on). I feel they are too important to drop though.
* Weapons & Armor would remain the same for now, with some additional items from other books trickled in.
* As many spells that could be done, would be done. The problem lies with the Tome of Magic; many of its spells never saw reprinting in any suitable format, and I'm unsure exactly how much of that material could be replicated. Being unable to recreate the new spheres of influence (chaos, law, numbers, thought, time, war, wards) would make specialty priest creation difficult.
* Magic Items would be fairly simple; few if any changed from 1e.
* The original Monster Manual for 2e had over 350 monsters, and I fear about 1/4 of them remain closed IP. Unless there are OGL versions of some (aacrocka, abishai, skeleton golems, etc) I'm leery as to what I could do beyond the SRD I could replicate.
I'm sure PnP can help with answering some of my questions, so before I move forward with a faithful clone or Pathfinder-clone, I'm interested in hearing more.
The general consensus appears toward a "perfect" edition; 90% classic 2nd edition, 10% clarification, correction, and expansion.
So what might a "perfect" edition look like?
* Keep the ability score tables as is, with the possible exception of removing exceptional strength (%). I personally abhor it, but it is a legacy item. If the overwhelming support is to keep % str, I'd keep it.
* Races: Human, Dwarf, Gnome, Elf, Half-elf, Halfling, Half-orc and Half-ogre. The latter two got pushed in Skills & Powers, and would make decent additions. Other races (orc, goblin, hobgoblin, minotaur, bugbear, ogre, kobold, pixie, and tiefling) could be inlcuded later in an additional supplement. Races would be mostly left the same, with an additional human benefit for removing level limits.
* Classes: Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Cleric, Druid, Specialty Priest, Thief, Bard, Mage, Specialist. I'd really love to include the additional specialty priests from Spells & Magic/Faiths & Avatars (Mystic, Monk, Shaman, Crusader) but I'm unsure of the legality of doing so. Classes would be left pretty much as is, with a few tweaks for better gameplay (such a sphere access. An alternate druidic progression for non-heirophant druids would be provided. Dual-Classing would be eliminated (or regulated to a sidebar) and humans would be allowed demi-human style multi-classing (with restrictions). Wild-Mages, Assassins, and other 2e core-classes would have to come later.
* Weapon Proficiency and specialization would remain pretty close to core, but with the added rules from Combat & Tactics (unarmed combat, weapon mastery, etc)
* Non-Weapon Profs would remain similar to original concept, as glorified ability checks. Right now, I'm not sure in what direction to take them, other than towards a true skill system (akin to 3e on). I feel they are too important to drop though.
* Weapons & Armor would remain the same for now, with some additional items from other books trickled in.
* As many spells that could be done, would be done. The problem lies with the Tome of Magic; many of its spells never saw reprinting in any suitable format, and I'm unsure exactly how much of that material could be replicated. Being unable to recreate the new spheres of influence (chaos, law, numbers, thought, time, war, wards) would make specialty priest creation difficult.
* Magic Items would be fairly simple; few if any changed from 1e.
* The original Monster Manual for 2e had over 350 monsters, and I fear about 1/4 of them remain closed IP. Unless there are OGL versions of some (aacrocka, abishai, skeleton golems, etc) I'm leery as to what I could do beyond the SRD I could replicate.
I'm sure PnP can help with answering some of my questions, so before I move forward with a faithful clone or Pathfinder-clone, I'm interested in hearing more.
AnthonyRoberson
First Post
Hey, I even have a couple of names for the project...
SERP (Second Edition Role Playing)
or
SERF (Second Edition Roleplaying Format)
Enjoy!
SERP (Second Edition Role Playing)
or
SERF (Second Edition Roleplaying Format)
Enjoy!
Remathilis
Legend
PapersAndPaychecks
First Post
If it appears in the SRD or the Tome of Horrors or some other OGC source, you're fine. Otherwise, basically, you aren't.
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