WotC puts a stop to online sales of PDFs

[jdrakeh]

Second. Strawman? My responses may have been mistaken, but don't accuse me of duplicity, please.

Responding to an argument that I didn't make is, in fact, the definition of a strawman (well, one of them, anyhow).

This has provoked a passionate response because you aren't able to buy their product via PDF any longer?

Absolutely. As a loyal customer who purchased legal copies of multiple OOP TSR supplements that could not be easily obtained elsewhere, my reward was to have that option removed entirely, indefinitely, without any warning at all for something that other people did. How do you not understand that this may frustrate some people?

I submit that they'll soon rectify this situation, and you will be able to spend your money on WotC products digital again.

With all due respect — what do you base that prognosis? The WotC reps have clearly stated in this and similar threads that they are 'looking at' other options for electronic distribution but have stated nothing further than that at the current time.

Unless you're privy to as yet unreleased insider information, you're just crossing your fingers and hoping for the best. . . from a company that just made what is arguably one of the biggest PR missteps since The Dille Trust was running the show.

I call bullocks. The Adobe publishing will do just fine without Wizard's endorsement. You give them too much credit.

WotC is the single largest publisher of role-playing games. Their PDF catalog was larger than that currently offered by any other publisher, as well. Their decision to indefinitely yank that catalog without giving prior notice and declare on public forums that they aren't going back to PDFs will create fall out. It's not a matter of if but, rather, a matter of how much.

 

[Jack99]

Well I'm glad you cleared that up (about not being a 5 year old that is).

I pretty much assumed eveyone here is an adult that can make their own decisions. That's why I called Darrin's post "Advice", and my post a "Suggestion". Hmmmm.

But if you feel you're weak willed enough that only rage at my post can keep you from succumbing ... then I guess you just have to do what you have to do.


(But, since you seemed to miss my earlier posts, or are maybe just ignoring them; whether I play 4E or not, I've felt it had a lot of things that were worthwhile. That's probably the reason why I've spent nearly $200 on 4E since it was released - Core books set, Adventurers Vault, H1-H3, and a DDI sub. However, with todays actions by WotC, I feel their usefullnes to me is at an end - period. Now for those that feel the same way as I do, my above suggestions still stand. For those that don't, good for you. I hope you can continue to enjoy WotC's products, and that from here on out they stop screwing you. I doubt it, but hey, here's to hoping.)

Maybe my initial post came of a bit too harsh, sorry mate. My point was simply that it is easier for someone who doesn't play 4e to suggest a boycott than for someone who actually plays the game. For you, 4e books are a bonus, for someone like me, they represent something more important.

For what it is worth, I am sorry that you will stop purchasing and talking (well writing) about 4e, since I always found your viewpoints interesting (someone who doesnt play 4e but still can manage to stay civil about it, and even like a lot of things about it).

Cheers

 

[jdrakeh]

Wizards of the Coast. The Adrian Veidt of RPG publishers.

Now somebody is giving them too much credit Lately, they've been more like Popeye's Bluto of RPG publishers.

 

[Darrin Drader]

My point was simply that it is easier for someone who doesn't play 4e to suggest a boycott than for someone who actually plays the game.

I may not play 4E, but I do play Castles and Crusades from time to time with my kids. Old school D&D and AD&D modules are easily compatible with that system. Fortunately I have a lot of physical products and I also bought a bunch of PDF copies of stuff I didn't have back when they were still sold through the Wizards Online Store, so I probably won't be hurting for material. Nevertheless, I find it sad that I can't go back to the well so to speak for more of the great classics that I don't already own.

 

[Wraith Form]

That said, the level of fire in this thread seems out of line, or at least misdirected.

It makes little sense to be angry at WotC for anything other than the short notice.

All due respect? Where have you been for the past several years? Under a rock?

You obviously never bought D&D 3.0 (only go get 3.5 crammed down yer throat), Dragon & Dungeon (only to have them discontinued), listened to the WotC propaganda about their DDi "we'll give you a discounted PDF of D&D4 books that you purchase" or several other interesting business decisions made by WotC over the past...what? 9 or 10?....years.

 

[Roman]

Easy for you (and the others who propagate this idea), since you do not even play the game WotC makes. Suggesting that we (those of us who actually play it) play and buy products for a game we enjoy less, out of spite against WotC and 4e, is frankly ridiculous. We are not 5 year old.

Without a wide-spread, organized protest and boycott of WotC/Hasbro products that makes a big statement to their bottom line, the company won't even notice the complaints and anger voiced by we, the outspoken MINORITY. They simply don't care. Wasting a lot of time crying "foul" is only good for us to vent our frustration, but will have no impact on Wotc/Hasbro at all.

Consumer boycotts and campaigns CAN work even if you love the products of the company. For example, I am a huge fan of BioWare computer games. Since BioWare was purchased by Electronic Arts, however, its games have included a particularly nasty version of SecuROM - a draconian digital rights management (DDRM) scheme, which included things like limited installs of the game you purchased, online activation with each install (so if the company takes down its servers in the future you won't be able to install the game) and so on.

There was considerable outcry over this when this scheme was introduced in Mass Effect and the sales of the game on the PC (as opposed to on consoles) were probably significantly affected. The reaction was amplified when another EA game, the Spore, was released and people gave it one star reviews on Amazon and led massive outcries on websites and boycotts. Yes, we were a vocal minority (and I was pretty tame - did not engage in one star reviews and such), but a vocal minority can have a considerable impact on sales through word of mouth and although Spore still sold well and made a lot of money, EA itself has estimated that the DRM fiasco has cost it $25 million in Spore sales (and this was something like one month after its release) - that is real money. Of course, the draconian DRM scheme did not help fight piracy of Spore at all - in fact, because of its DDRM scheme Spore gained the dubious title of being the most pirated game in history.

It has been about a year since this all started and I have certainly not purchased any EA products since then. About 10 days ago, it seems the EA has finally relented: BioWare Forums: EA DROPS Securom on its flagship game: The SIMS 3

Note that EA is proably a far bigger fish than WotC or at least so I would guess. Alienating its customers, WotC is playing with fire. I am not saying this is the thing that will generate a massive consumer backlash, but if WotC keeps on doing things like this, a critical number of customers will eventually eventually be pushed over the threshold.

 

[Gorrstagg]

I have purchased all my 4E books as pdf's, and actually have hard copies of the core set as well. Actually that's the only hardcovers I've got.

It's 2009, and I use a laptop and a home computer, often simultaneously. I must admit I've been caught completely and totally off-guard by this move from WotC.

My first reactions are, "Wait, why am I, a great customer, being treated as a criminal. I didn't steal any books, I didn't pirate anything. I've faithfully, bought the new books that I would use, on their release day. My name is watermarked in the bottom left hand corner. And I can avoid killing a TREE, and have a great tool to enhance my game."
"What the hell is wrong here? Wait, they are pursuiing legal action against 8 people, but somehow that affects me? Doesn't this mean that the system works, if they've tracked these people down?"

"I think 4th edition is the greatest edition of D&D to come along in the past 26 years of my gaming life, which started with D&D Red Box. And it's 2009, books are on pdf's, so we can avoid destroying forests. And I can carry one laptop with my 10 books on it. And now they want to treat me like some dirty scuzzy criminal."

My reactions have ranged the gamut, with part of me wanting a boycott to happen, until they bring back the sale of .pdf's. Because I am at heart a lover of this edition.

Which has me thinking, well this certainly was a knee-jerk reaction. Which makes me think someone is trying to justify something somewhere up in the corporate chain. Because the pirates, will still make copies and put them out there. So this action does NOTHING to stop them.

It in fact is the definition of retarded.

"n. A slowing down or hindering of progress; a delay."

Who is driving the bus over at WotC? Seriously. So, let me see if I get this right. Remove all .pdf's of WotC materials. So revenues go down the drain, and it stops not a damn pirate. They'll get the materials, and probably get great copies because someone will go through a little bit more effort to spite WotC. And the people getting hurt are, WotC, and their loyal customer base.

Guys, this is what happens when someone rolls a 1, when making a logical skill test.

My only hope, is that WotC is going to go with Stardocks downloading scheme. Or hell just go with Stardock.

Actually another part of me wants to find someone who is brilliantly rich who would buy D&D out from Hasbro. So we can get things fixed as it were.

And you know what's worse, it's folks like Scott Rouse who have to put up with this crap. Him and all the dev's working on this. Them I feel for.

This is just a horrible decision, and I look forward to it being repealed or done in another method that brings it in-house to WotC. They probably looked at it as a financial decision that they could play off of on pirates to bring in the revenue stream of offering their .pdf's and getting all the profit, pure and clean. (SKill check, Insight - DC 26, rolled a 32 - Success.)

If anything, this is probably only a sweeping change to bring in more money without any middle men. Bring it home, make the money, and up our profits in this economic downturn, and just not worry about the 20,000 loyal buyers of the electronic format. They only represented members of the book of the month club anyhow, 15,000 will come back to us when we start selling them right here at WotC.

Grrr... - I'm pissed off. I'm getting crapped on for now, and treated like a criminal because it's convenient. Well, I can say this. Shame on you WotC. And Shame on you Hasbro. This is not how an ethical business decision is made and implemented so it impacts your customers the least. You gradually phase it out. And switch over to your own store, (cause that's what your probably going to do anyhow.)

This fly by the pants crap. Has no real supporters, irregardless of your "Rights" because your within them, but damn if you don't hurt the very loyal.

 

[Wraith Form]

My point was simply that it is easier for someone who doesn't play 4e to suggest a boycott than for someone who actually plays the game.

Until 6 hours ago I had a DDi subscription.

Until 6 hours ago my D&D4 books were on my gaming shelf instead of a cardboard storage box in my cellar.

I have been playing and buying D&D4.

Yet I'm boycotting them.

So it's actually pretty easy for someone who plays the game to drop their mess into the toilet & flush.

 

[Filcher]

Responding to an argument that I didn't make is, in fact, the definition of a strawman (well, one of them, anyhow).

It presumes malice, or intent to deceive. I have neither.

Absolutely. As a loyal customer who purchased legal copies of multiple OOP TSR supplements that could not be easily obtained elsewhere, my reward was to have that option removed entirely, indefinitely, without any warning at all for something that other people did. How do you not understand that this may frustrate some people?

I assume that people that wanted the PDFs, would have bought them. Buying item X doesn't earn right to expect it will be hosted forever.

With all due respect — what do you base that prognosis? The WotC reps have clearly stated in this and similar threads that they are 'looking at' other options for electronic distribution but have stated nothing further than that at the current time.

Unless you're privy to as yet unreleased insider information, you're just crossing your fingers and hoping for the best. . . from a company that just made what is arguably one of the biggest PR missteps since The Dille Trust was running the show.

Just my assumption, but I think it is logical.

I'm reading TSR's A3 tonight, and you and I live pretty close to one another. If Wizards doesn't host a back catalog by, say, this Gen Con, I'll mail you my copy. Not a huge win, but pride is involved.

WotC is the single largest publisher of role-playing games. Their PDF catalog was larger than that currently offered by any other publisher, as well. Their decision to indefinitely yank that catalog without giving prior notice and declare on public forums that they aren't going back to PDFs will create fall out. It's not a matter of if but, rather, a matter of how much.

Meh. We'll see, I suppose. Carry on.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

What I find most annoying about this is that the honest people are being punished, and it's not going to slow down the dishonest people one bit.

Yep.

It seems as if people "in charge" never get how piracy works and always pick "solutions" that hurt their customers more than the pirates.

I also think they are worrying to much. A pirated copy is not per default a lost sale, that depends on the degree of interest in the product, and the ability to afford the product.
But I guess that leads into areas that are better not discussed on EN World.

I would hate to be in Scott Rouse shoes now - I hope he enjoys the challenge.