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Forked Thread: [Ryan Dancey's D&D Death Spiral] - D&D doomed to cult status?

thedungeondelver

Adventurer

I would rather see D&D as a cultish niche hobby thing rather than puffed up and watered down for mass consumption, honestly.

How many Ford 427 COBRAS are there?
Now how many Chrysler mini-vans are there?

Guess what I'd prefer to drive.
 

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Galloglaich

First Post
I have to take small issue with this. Before 3E, where was this modularity? Yes, there were piles and piles of extra material, but 90% of these were either fluff or glorified house rules, none of which really fit the definition of modular. 3E was modular, and was unique in this regard as far as D&D goes.

As far of being simple and casual, moving on to be more deeply involved, where does 4E fail at this? You can either play out of just the original 3 books and be simple and casual, or you can add in all that has come after, including Dragon magazine.

Don't get me wrong, no version of DnD yet has been perfect, and I liked a lot of the changes done in 3E and the attempt to make it more logical, and even some of the innovations of 4E, but I think the Basic Set / Advanced Books paradigm of 1E was the closest so far to a modular system, which is to say not very close, but I suspect that is the reason for the "Renaissance" of the old school games, to the point that they may have been cancled partly due to being seen as a threat to 4E.

Mercurius said:
And unleashing the imagination is what is at the essence of RPGs, imo. It is what sets it apart as a hobby; the disclaimer, of course, is that other activities unleash the imagination, obviously, and there are other important, enjoyable aspects of RPGs, but in my opinion this is The Essential Thing.

Brilliantly put, that is sig-line material.

I couldn't agree more. The highlighted part, imo, is the future of RPGs: If they begin to really focus on this then they will survive and flourish and possibly morph into something else. Heck, we have Model UN at my school and that is a kind of roleplaying. I am also planning on teaching a class on World Building to high school kids--how cool would that be
(snip)
The key, in other words, is the development of imagination and the usefulness of RPGs as a tool to do so.



Great point, we are seeing more and more mainstream applications of the role-playing paradigm that DnD basically invented, and the sad thing is they have left DnD way behind. I’d like to see DnD take it’s proper role back.

Yes you can. I would also add that healthy maturation does not involve the death of the child (in particular, play) but its enfoldment within a larger self.

I agree… that is what I meant by the Buggs Bunny analogy. I think there are good childrens books, like say, Where the Wild Things Are or Dr Seuss, which still appeal to me and to many adults. These are the masterpieces, which speak to the intelligence of their audience in a way that they can relate to whether they get all the jokes or not. But there is also that other type which relies on the delusions of childhood, this is the kind of childish or adolescent genre I don’t like, and definitely don’t want to be forced into.

Imagine this product:

Dungeons & Dragons Basic Set
*Player's Manual (basic rules, classes, races), 32 pages
*Dungeon Master's Manual (incl. monsters, treasure, etc), 64 pages
*Dice

Fully compatible with Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, which would be similar to the books we see now. How could we possibly get everything we need into 96 pages? Well, you only include the four archetypal classes--fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue--and the 3-4 main races--elf, dwarf, human, maybe halfling); then you simplify Powers to Attack and other "types" (how many different kinds of attacks do we need?); then you give the DM some nifty guidelines on how to skillfully use DM Fiat and come up with appropriate target numbers for skill checks, etc. You include only the classic monsters and a simplified group of treasures. It isn't that hard, really (and I'm tempted to try it myself, if I have the time).
(snip)
Yes, and a "good enough" set of rules, imo, would be one that is modular, that can be played in a relatively simple fashion but with whatever degree of complexity a given group desires. No RPG that I know of has been able to achieve this (maybe not even really tried).

Well, there is that OGL license out there, I believe something like this could be created fairly easily by a group of like-minded people on an open-source model. I have been saying for a while, a few of us should get together and we should start a wiki…

G.

P.S. I feel your pain on the 177 HP Half-Orc ... try a spiked chain I hear they take 'em down to size real good...
 
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teitan

Legend
In the 80s, I'd never find myself drinking at a gentleman's club while a rather attractive young stripper tells me about her Elven Paladin.

It's a lot more mainstream than you think, as a lot of geek culture is now mainstream.

Sure the nerds still do it, but at one point my group consisted of an amateur MMA fighter, a local sous-chef, a goth diva, and a construction yard foreman.

I worked in tech support at the time, so I got to be the resident nerd.

It might not be advertised out the wazoo, but it's accessed by a lot more of the populous, and isn't restricted to certain subcultures.

My old group consisted of similar types, including a former student of Dan Severin. I also knew a stripper that played a LOT of AD&D, I worked in the same club. D&D has never really been as stereotype as it is portrayed. I wasn't the school dork etc. I was in fact fairly popular in spite of loving AD&D, comic books and dating a band chick. 3 (I think, definitely 2, 5 of us played football in HS as starters) players were an integral part part of a football team that almost went to the state championship in the late 80s/early 90s. One guy went on to be a student of Dan Severin and work for a few MMA magazines in the late 90s. Essentially your examples don't mean anything is my point.

My original post wasn't meaning that D&D wasn't popular or was dying by any means but that it isn't as mainstream. In fact the game is much more popular now than it was in the 90s when D&D and the industry were in a huge downward spiral, even with White Wolf's popularity. White Wolf was a completely different crowd, heck, a different paradigm from the D&D crowd. WOTC did an excellent job of trying to make D&D appeal to that crowd with 3e. Now they are trying to appeal to the WoW crowd.
 
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teitan

Legend
I think one place to begin with is...

...rpgs have always had cult status.

When I started, there were very few gamers; sure, the numbers increased dramatically over the years and it is now possible to find D&D in B&N and Borders, but it is still a "minority hobby", and it is still seen as something you "grow out of"..

I've almost ALWAYS bought my D&D books at B&N or Borders, back to the late 80s. The period when I ran a comic book shoppe being the period where I didn't and when Borders started their rewards program that changed actually. I still remember buying Oriental Adventures, Unearthed Arcana and my first issue of Dragon Magazine at the Waldenbooks in 1990.
 

Roman

First Post
I am no fan of 4E at all (quite the opposite, actually), but I don't think D&D is in a death spiral. I suspect that 4E is selling well and is a commercial success. Whereas Ruan Dancey's interpretation of PHB II being sold out is a valid one and might be true (it is plausible) - a far simpler explanation would be that it has sold out, wait for it,.... because it was popular! ;) You know, Occam's razor and all. Still, I would like to thank him for commenting on the topic - his analysis is at least interesting.

I also disagree with him that D&D (or RPGs in general) cannot survive in the face of competition from electronic media. There is some competition and overlap there, but they also serve different purposes! I think few people would argue that football will die out because of competition from computer football games... - OK, so CRPGs and RPGs might have more in common and might compete a bit more directly, but they are also somewhat complementary and mutually enhance the interest of gamers in say the fantasy genre... Basically, I just don't see D&D as dying.

That said, I do agree that D&D is going to be 'doomed' to 'cult status'. I placed the word 'doomed' in inverted commas, because I think D&D always was only a 'cult status' activity, so there is no change. Besides, for me as a consumer, the game being 'doomed' to 'cult status' might actually be a blessing - depending on how much transformation away from what I like the game would have to undergo to appeal to a broader audience, I might not like the game anymore, so let it remain 'doomed' to 'cult status' thank you very much! :cool: Of course, it would be nice if the D&D 'cult' continued to grow and I am optimistic it will grow - after all, the U.S. population is growing, so even if the proportion of gamers does not increase, there will be more D&D players. Furthermore D&D has a much lower penetration in non-U.S. markets, so the potential for worldwide growth is enormous even if it will always remain a niche activity.
 

Ariosto

First Post
I guess different people might have different ideas of what "cult status" means. To me, it would look like the situation before and soon after the original set's publication: the game spreading by word of mouth and often by "bootleg" copies, little known otherwise. By 1978, I was meeting "non-gamer" people who had been attracted by the box cover of the first Basic Set in a store and taught themselves to play -- which is about as "mainstream" as I would ever expect.

That blue-covered book packed a lot of inspiration into 48 pages (including the two-page reference sheet)! Someone has produced a "Holmes Companion" that extends character advancement to 9th level (including additional spells) -- in just four more pages.

The monster selection was comprehensive: if memory serves, all those from the original set plus a good few from Supplement I. Magic items were limited to 10 each in seven major categories (70 total), but served well their exemplary purpose.

What facilitated such brevity was simplicity. The combat rules took up but three pages. A full-form monster "stat block" usually had just nine very short pieces of data (move, hit dice, armor class, treasure type, alignment, attacks, and damage).

In the 4E PHB, the chapter on character classes starts on page 50!

(By that point in the 1st ed. AD&D PHB, you're starting on the sixth level cleric spells list; lists for all classes fill pp. 40-100, or about half the book.)
 

Jasperak

Adventurer
In the end, it's not the gaming products themselves that get people to the table and keep them there. It's the interpersonal interactions. If I come across a complete newbie who is willing to try, say, a naval game, I better be able to put something in front of him that he can grok. And it better not take 20 hours to play. Likewise, in trying to get my fellow grognards to the table, I better be able to put something out there that everyone will at least sort of like and not feel like bamboo is being shoved under their fingernails every time we resolve a movement phase.

Just a couple of thoughts:
1. I wonder how this thought process works with the thread from a few months ago that implied that before one could pass judgment on 4e they had to play it for 120 hours or some such.

2. I introduced my wife to D&D around 1997-98 with Mentzer's Basic Set. She has played since then but in a very casual manner. She enjoyed 3e but we did play it without a lot of the fiddly rules.

Anecdote Time.
We went to the D&D game day at my FLGS in Richmond, VA. We both played a single character (There were enough people there that they added an extra game for some others and us.) After the play session I was meh but interested in trying some more. She on the other hand was emphatically uninterested. Here's why.

She likes to play fighters for one simple reason; they are simple to play. In all previous editions fighters never had much to worry about except rolling to attack. Many people have bemoaned that fact to the point that in 4e fighters now have a wide assortment of abilities with Vancian restrictions. In a further attempt to add depth to the class they now have a feature called Marking. She asked if she had to keep track of that and I said it looks like it. She spat back "forget that" (not exactly though Morrus' GMa might not appreciate what she really said.) She also did not understand why the fighter's marking and paladin's marking were different if they were called the same thing. I shrugged. When I asked her what she thought about 4e she stuck her tongue out at me.

Several weeks later after reading some threads here about how it was bringing new players either in or old players back after 3e, I asked her if I had started her with this instead of the Mentzer Basic set would she have played, she flat out said no and her reason directly responds to the questions raised in this thread.

She said think about how we played. Twice a month we got together with a CPA and his wife, a master electrician, a bank manager, a gentleman that was working on his doctoral thesis and his wife, and a local actor. We ordered food and everybody brought a bottle of wine. We gathered around 7pm and reconnected, ate, and drank. Half of the session may have been a recollection about an adventure that took place twenty, yes twenty, years ago. Some of those stories got tiring if you were not there.

None of these people cared about rules; it was all about the story. If there were too many rules or the rules got in the way of that collective story, then they had no place. We just liked to roll dice.

While I have rewritten what she said for clarity, it still expresses our general playing style and why a rules-lite system or a modular system that you could add as much too as you want would be superior for my favorite group and us.

Addendum.
While I have lost touch with this group, I am pretty sure they would not have converted to 4e, and I can say that they were not the greatest fans of 3e either. They much preferred what seemed to be a hybrid of 1e and B/X. That's seven people that would not have been part of this "6 million D&D players." I would have grown to like 4e after a time I think.

EDIT: After hitting submit I realized I didn't quite address the thought of D&D being doomed to cult status. It will be forthcoming.
 
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Ariosto

First Post
The first Basic Set's cover indicated "THE ORIGINAL ADULT FANTASY ROLE PLAYING GAME." The Moldvay edition's blurb read, "The Original Fantasy Role Playing Game For 3 or More Adults, Ages 10 and Up".

"Adults, Ages 10 and Up" -- love that!
 

Jasperak

Adventurer
Both my wife and I and the aforementioned group could be considered "not exactly mainstream." I knew I found the perfect group when one day they said screw D&D lets watch Buckaroo Banzai. I had never seen it before but they said I would enjoy it. I didn't. But I learned a lot about them. I would have never expected these people to enjoy something as off the wall as this acid trip on film.

While I don't get this movie we as a collective group do have a lot of tastes in common. It is these differences that made our group a dynamic one in which we would express our different tastes to help broaden our likes and dislikes and it is the these commonalities that hold us together. It is quite a site to see five people trying to do the "dead parrot sketch" from Monty Python.

More importantly it was D&D that led me and later my wife to this group, though by no means a glue to hold us together. These people all enjoyed each other's company outside of the game. D&D was no more than a simple pastime for a group of like-minded people from all walks of life. We could have just as easily played Monopoly or Diplomacy or watched the Lord of the Rings movies up in the wide-screen theatre across from the National Zoo in DC.

How does this all relate? Well I see it very simply. D&D embraced people that were creative and imaginative, and those that enjoyed SciFi and Fantasy. It always has and it always will, but that is where the similarities stop.

The original editions were rules-lite compared to the later editions, meaning those earlier ones were more adaptable than the later ones (IMO) to the different styles of game play. The group I mentioned earlier were far more into storytelling and camaraderie than character building and tactical movement. Their idea of character building was who had the more engaging story to tell. And while the later editions do not preclude these play styles, they are more difficult to allow what with all of the different tactical options and character building questions that come from a metagame standpoint.

If the early editions of D&D were subjected to "cult status" then I think it will continue to be. The later editions have only shifted their core audience from what made D&D great in the 70's and 80's to what has made it great well into the 2000's. Neither is better than the other except from one's specific point of view.
 

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