How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[BryonD]

Splitting the full length of a wooden shaft is highly improbable because (for one thing) the blade tends to follow the twisting grain of the wood. I suppose it might have occurred, but I think the feat was clearly meant to highlight the "larger than (real) life" nature of Robin Hood, a figure of legend.

This is exactly my point. "Larger than life", is just a more poetic way of saying "impossible". But in many many cases, fantasy heroes are greatly larger than life without magic.

Would Beowulf stay under water for days in your game?
Would Robin Hood, reliably, on command, split the full length of the sheriff's arrow?
Would Conan even exist?

 

[ExploderWizard]

If that is the entirety of the reason, then I see why threads like this seem so silly. The rules should not be seen as a straight-jacket for the DM.

Since your argument on that seems so facetious, I honestly don't know if you are being serious, then I'll point to some of the places in the rules that gives some guidance in this respect.



Those are just some of the ones that I was able to look up in a reasonable amount of time. There is more than enough guidance in both books that allow the DM to "modify" the rules to fit a specific situation. Or that give him guidance on how to adjudicate special situations. As long as the DM is not being an asshat, I can't see anyone getting up in arms about a specific change to a specific power during a specific situation.

The big thing should be that the player's are kept informed. So if the DM decides that Spells can't be used when tied up, that is clearly a "house-rule" (though there is a precedent in the power descriptions that specifies special circumstances). I see no reason why a DM could not say that is the way he wants to run a specific game and let the players be informed.

The DMG quotes seem to support a different game than the one presented in the PHB. Taking into consideration all the wisdom in those quotes all one needs are a few simple rules and a few guidelines on making effective rulings. It seems that the only thing out of place about it all are the hundreds of pages of rules that tell you exactly when you can push, pull, slide, and fart.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Would Beowulf stay under water for days in your game?

Not without magic.

Would Robin Hood, reliably, on command, split the full length of the sheriff's arrow?

Not without magic.

Would Conan even exist?

Yes


RC

 

[BryonD]

Not without magic.

Not without magic.

Yes

whew!!

 

[BryonD]

So, are you claiming that both Beowulf and Robin Hood are popularly assumed to have used magic? Or are you just stating that those archetypes, as commonly established, are banned from your game?

 

[D'karr]

The DMG quotes seem to support a different game than the one presented in the PHB. Taking into consideration all the wisdom in those quotes all one needs are a few simple rules and a few guidelines on making effective rulings. It seems that the only thing out of place about it all are the hundreds of pages of rules that tell you exactly when you can push, pull, slide, and fart.

Sure, that's it. When exaggeration is the only "negative" against the system then I guess there really is no common ground to discuss. The initial assertion was that DMs couldn't do something. Obviously the game provides the DM with plenty of leeway and guidance to handle adjudication in the game. The claims of "you can't do that because of player entitlement" simply fall flat when examined against what the game actually provides.

If someone doesn't like the game, that is perfectly fine. They should play what they like. Hopefully nobody is forcing them to play. However, all I have seen in most of these threads are alleged grievances that bear little resemblance to reality.

 

[Ariosto]

So, are you claiming that both Beowulf and Robin Hood are popularly assumed to have used magic? Or are you just stating that those archetypes, as commonly established, are banned from your game?

Did Beowulf use magic, or did magic use Beowulf? That he was, or became, a creature of the numinous realm is I think obvious.

If one is really interested in games of archetypes driven by the laws of Story, then digging down to such root stock is not a bad idea!

Robin Hood's adventures, in the (20th century) form in which we have widely received them, form an epic. It is a myth of heroic instauration. Were Robin merely a man, pursuing a man's ends, fantastic feats would make no more than a cartoon-like "tall tale". The magic lies in his instrumentality.

As Robert E. Howard depicted him, Conan was thoroughly human -- not an absurd superman to raise as an example in support of the revisionist argument. To invoke pastiches and bowdlerizations, comic books and B movies, is not a tactic likely to inspire assent from fans of classic sword-and-sorcery literature.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Sure, that's it. When exaggeration is the only "negative" against the system then I guess there really is no common ground to discuss. The initial assertion was that DMs couldn't do something. Obviously the game provides the DM with plenty of leeway and guidance to handle adjudication in the game. The claims of "you can't do that because of player entitlement" simply fall flat when examined against what the game actually provides.

If someone doesn't like the game, that is perfectly fine. They should play what they like. Hopefully nobody is forcing them to play. However, all I have seen in most of these threads are alleged grievances that bear little resemblance to reality.

I was just trying to understand the disparity between the message from one rulebook to another for the same game system.

Its all about the language:

You see these keywords? Too accurate for sandrulings. Only Imperial rules lawyers are so precise..

 

[Raven Crowking]

So, are you claiming that both Beowulf and Robin Hood are popularly assumed to have used magic? Or are you just stating that those archetypes, as commonly established, are banned from your game?

Um.....No?

I am claiming that, if Beowulf stays three days under water, then either the water is magical or Beowulf is using a magical effect.

Robin Hood couldn't reliable and on demand split a clothyard shaft, although it is notable that the guy who did the archery stunts for Errol Flynn's Robin Hood could reliable and on demand shoot two arrows, using the second to knock the first out of the air.


RC

 

[D'karr]

You see these keywords? Too accurate for sandrulings. Only Imperial rules lawyers are so precise..

Now that was funny...