Necromancer Games-update by Orcus

[Orcus]

But I believe that at the higher levels of the company, the GSL has worked exactly as they intended. I believe they are currently delighted with the state of things -- they've killed a bunch of the smaller competitors yapping at their heels. Yay.

I'm sure there are some that feel that way. There were some who felt that way when Ryan was championing the OGL too. But Wizards isnt one voice with one intent. So you cant really cast Scott as a lone voice against one monolithic other view. The GSL is proof of this problem--the GSL was a horse by committee. There were too many masters and too many different voices. Thats why the first GSL was a jumbled mess that tried to do a bunch of things yet acomplished NONE of them. The GSL tried to serve too many masters (and I'm sure one was the "get rid of 3P" voice).

But its a mistake to ascribe a singular intent to Wizards. That is where the "Wizards wants to kill 3Ps" argument fails--because they simply dont have a singular voice or vision. That is one of the problems. They cant figure out their overall view on 3Ps.

If there is an overall view, it is arrogant indifference and a belief that they are the only one that matters. And THAT has proved to be a huge mistake.

I think they are waking up and considering that hey wait a minute, maybe they shouldnt make the exact same mistakes TSR made by thinking they are the market and everyone follows them and does whatever they want (yes, to some extent its true, but you cant simply ignore the market). I think there are some people coming around to see they handled this badly and are getting past the "we're Wizards, we dont care about you" arrogance. Problem is, now the market stinks and the economy is an issue and everyone is really risk averse. No one want to put their balls on the line and change course.

Its gonna be interesting.

Clark

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I'm sure there are some that feel that way. There were some who felt that way when Ryan was championing the OGL too. But Wizards isnt one voice with one intent. So you cant really cast Scott as a lone voice against one monolithic other view. The GSL is proof of this problem--the GSL was a horse by committee. There were too many masters and too many different voices. Thats why the first GSL was a jumbled mess that tried to do a bunch of things yet acomplished NONE of them. The GSL tried to serve too many masters (and I'm sure one was the "get rid of 3P" voice).

But its a mistake to ascribe a singular intent to Wizards. That is where the "Wizards wants to kill 3Ps" argument fails--because they simply dont have a singular voice or vision. That is one of the problems. They cant figure out their overall view on 3Ps.

If there is an overall view, it is arrogant indifference and a belief that they are the only one that matters. And THAT has proved to be a huge mistake.

I think they are waking up and considering that hey wait a minute, maybe they shouldnt make the exact same mistakes TSR made by thinking they are the market and everyone follows them and does whatever they want (yes, to some extent its true, but you cant simply ignore the market). I think there are some people coming around to see they handled this badly and are getting past the "we're Wizards, we dont care about you" arrogance. Problem is, now the market stinks and the economy is an issue and everyone is really risk averse. No one want to put their balls on the line and change course.

Its gonna be interesting.

Clark

I don't think there is that much of a parallel. WotCs arrogant indifference does not equate to TSR's open aggression and hostility. I know some wounds don't entirely heal, and people who were invested in the OGL have been let down, but honestly this isn't the same ballpark.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I believe that at the higher levels of the company, the GSL has worked exactly as they intended. I believe they are currently delighted with the state of things -- they've killed a bunch of the smaller competitors yapping at their heels. Yay.

If indeed WotC is threatened by the amount of sales generated by all other d20 3pp in aggregate, then they are in serious trouble.

As in, "I'm going to eat these scraps of gristle myself because if I give them to the dog, I will starve," kind of trouble.

 

[Piratecat]

So we're clear, discussion of the character builder doesn't belong in this thread.

Thanks.

 

[xechnao]

I think they are waking up and considering that hey wait a minute, maybe they shouldnt make the exact same mistakes TSR made by thinking they are the market and everyone follows them and does whatever they want (yes, to some extent its true, but you cant simply ignore the market). I think there are some people coming around to see they handled this badly and are getting past the "we're Wizards, we dont care about you" arrogance. Problem is, now the market stinks and the economy is an issue and everyone is really risk averse. No one want to put their balls on the line and change course.

Its gonna be interesting.

Clark

In the economy and thus in business there are no perfect or ideal solutions. Each decision or choice has a price to pay. Always. Wotc's actions may seem to have caused some harm but the fact is that they were worse first place. Or could have been worse. Regarding 3pp the problem in the end seems to be that 4e is a strictly focused and balanced game and mechanically demanding. This means that is not so much 3pp friendly as 3e was: this is valid for both the developers and the clients who now seem to pay more attention to dedicated material -biggest success example the character builder. Regarding 4e, Wotc is going strong. There is not the room or space for 3pp as there was for 3.xe.

This "4e" effect to the fan base could shape an attitude very different than the 3.x one which was one system for all. And this is a very good thing for who likes tabletop rpgs.

 

[Reigan]

Speaking purely as a consumer (hope this helps):

I buy my WotC D&D books from Amazon, they are heavily discounted & the p&p is free. The hardbacks have been of consistent high quality and I have a pretty good idea what I'm getting when I buy them. In other words, value for money.

If I want to buy a 3pp product I have to mail order it from a specialist games supplier, at full price & with a hefty p&p (usually 10%) on top. I am also less clear on what I would be getting, it might be great, then again it might suck. Its a gamble and I only have a limited budget.

Its also a lot easier to create your own stuff with 4e than it was before, in fact with 3e I felt overwhelmed by the amount of choice.

As a player I just don't feel the need for more stuff, I'm in control of my game. The WotC books are fairly balanced and not full of uneeded fluff (I don't need to know what goliaths eat for breakfast).

As a dm I would like more monsters, I would be really open to themed monster books (like Open Grave), I want to run an urban themed campaign, so lots of humanoid rogue types would be nice. I also miss the very detailed campaign settings, I really liked Scarred Lands (which did the Gods/Primordal thing much better than PoL).

I hope the 3pps do find a new new market niche to exploit and find a way around the distributers, maybe reach the fans direct somehow. Good luck with your market research.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Just to nip in real quick - on the note of Wizards' products just being overall better then 3rd party ones...you don't know many psionics fans, do you?

 

[carmachu]

Why?

Why are joyous 4E fans not buying the 3PP product that is out there?

If 4E fans were buying Mongoose would sell to them.

I'm starting to see a pattern....granted take it with salt, but it seems like 4e fans are more likely to want the official items, where as those that stayed behind are much more likely to buy and use the 3rd party products....

 

[carmachu]

Your not but the real question is how many of us are there? No one knows for sure and we can all throw around numbers from our personal experiences but the problems with that is. Birds of a feather tend to flock together.

Which is true, most of the gamers i knew the most where the ones that was big into 3pp stuff and they tend to be the group that least liked 4e.

But not to start a edition war. Anyways 3e brought me back to DnD but 3pp products keep me playing it, with out them honestly i would have went back to other games long ago like I did with 2e.

Oh definately. I do not want to go back to edition war. Thats not the point.

3rd brought me back too, after teh burn out of 2nd. The 3rd party proucts kept me around. We've been playing Ptolus for actually 2 years now and no end in sight...

But keep in mind, while no there are no numbers to show that 3rd party products kept alot of folks around, it cuts both ways. One cant say that 3rd party products didnt keep folks around either.

Yeah the folks I play and hang with are all the same cut. One guy has been playing 4e, but the other 6, including myself, have no interest in 4e. The one who did is about to give up on it, as in comparison to the current Ptolus game, the 4e game doesnt even come close to being as good. *shrug*

 

[catastrophic]

So we're clear, discussion of the character builder doesn't belong in this thread.

Thanks.

Why not? It's clearly an important factor and one which isn't discussed enough in relation to 3pp of 4e. It's a lot more interesting and noteworthy than hearing the same old spiel about the terribly fractured playbase and how everyone's anecdotel evidence supports the triumph of their preferred edition.

While I sympathize - and clearly my anecdotal evidence is WAY better than those other peoples', nyah! - please read the rules. If you have a question about moderator actions, we ask that you PM or email them (email addresses are available in a sticky thread in the Meta forum.) Never bring it up in-thread.

Someone can feel free to start a thread about Character Builder and 3PP integration issues, incidentally.

~ Piratecat