RSDancey replies to Goodman article (Forked Thread: Goodman rebuttal)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ideally, a 5E would have multiple types of characters, each using different mechanics, to capture an even larger segment of the potential playerbase. Instead of everyone functioning on a three tier 'daily, per encounter and at will' scheme, different classes and roles would function differently tactically, with some being resource-management base, some being 'all day long' based, and some using other schema entirely.

We could call one a 'Warlock,' and it could be an 'all day long' sort of character, while another could be called a 'Wizard' and have a finite number of spell slots changeable daily, and another could be called a 'Psion' and have the ability to micromanage individual power uses via different gradations of expenditure of some finite resource pool we'll call 'power points.' Other classes could have different sorts of situational adjustments, so that a 'Rogue' might be able to outdamage many other classes, but only if certain pre-conditions are met, and these pre-conditions would vary from class to class, with 'Scouts' getting bonuses when fulfilling another condition, 'Rangers' getting bonuses against certain types of target, etc., etc.

It will be brilliant! There could be classes to appeal to each different style of play!

That sounds awesome, I'd totally play a game like that!

 

[cdrcjsn]

Do online-games really destroy pen and paper roleplaying games or push them aside? I think we are talking about two different kinds of games here. In WOW there is no roleplay, it is not a roleplaying game. DnD is.
Is there a significant amount of people who would belong to the roleplaying game target group but are not playing roleplaying games but play online games instead? Again, where are the numbers to support this?

No hard data, just anecdotal evidence, but I would say yes.

Most of my D&D experience lies with the RPGA. In the SF Bay Area, we had a community of several hundred people who play together at home, game stores and local conventions.

I distinctly recall losing track of several dozen people in the community when WoW first came on the market. They stopped attending local games due to playing WoW.

Does WoW involve a lot of role playing? For the most part, no. Is it a role playing game? Yeah, it is. People are just as dedicated to their wow characters as some D&D players are. So it draws from the same pool of people who are likely to play D&D.

The biggest attraction to WoW (and other MMOs), is the convenience, as many have pointed out. But almost as great a draw is the sense of community. You form very close bonds with people in your guild. Even if you never meet them face to face, the fact that you spend several hours a week hanging out with people online, talking through headsets, creates the same sort of camaraderie that you would find in a long term tabletop home group.

But WotC is looking to span that gap in community. A stronger RPGA. Greater support for local gamestores running events. Their digital initiative (though stalled slightly, it is still going strong and is likely to expand).

Do I agree with Ryan that MMOs have cut into D&D's market share? Yeah, in the short term, because it offers convenience that currently cannot be matched by tabletop games. Do I share his doom and gloom regarding the tabletop industry? No, I don't. I can easily envision ways for D&D to stay relevant in a world with MMOs. If anything, MMOs will eventually bring more people to playing RPGs (albeit online games). If even a fraction of a fraction of those start playing tabletop RPGs, then I would think the industry as a whole will grow.

 

[xechnao]

I'm neither a new or an old gamer. I've been gaming for only 8 years and quite infrequently before 4th edition came out. Infact your stab at MMO players is odd too since everyone in my gaming group plays MMOs, but as plays PPRPGs. One of our players used to only play MMOs, but now also plays a number of PPRPGS with us. So I have seen that the rise of MMOs has only increased our players not decreased them.

So are you saying the roleplaying tabletop population is increasing? Because the consensus of the thread regarding Dancey's post is that tabletop rpgames as they are, are becoming harder and harder to stay afoot when they have to compete for people's gaming-hobby time.

I've also noticed your avoiding your core premise that Wotc failed to make an RPG that you can't have fun in. Its just a different rule set. Heck I'm sure I could make an interesting and dynamic fantasy world based on using a quarter to determine fate. It wouldn't be as interesting rules wise, but there is no reason the story couldn't be good.

I am not avoiding my core premise cause this is not my core premise
My premise is that Wotc failed to make a game that is especially build to especially promote the fun of the tabletop experience in front of the MMO games for the most basic or casual modern consumer level of entertainment. For who is educated, informed and has passed the learning curve of the tabletop rpgs we have had till now 4e may be the best game in the world right now. Same for who has the possibility of the available time needed to make most out of 4e. But is 4e enough to compete with MMOs for the casual gamer? One that is not allready invested in fantasy gaming but he could be interested or fascinated to give it a small bit effort? Today the smaller this bit of effort has to be, the more MMOs seem to win over D&D. In other words D&D faces an uphill battle. It should play on its strengths and try to keep what it can keep. To secure the possibility to be able to permanently achieve this it should be optimized to thrive on the land it draws its strength from. This is my core premise.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I am not avoiding my core premise cause this is not my core premise
My premise is that Wotc failed to make a game that is especially build to especially promote the fun of the tabletop experience in front of the MMO games for the most basic or casual modern consumer level of entertainment. For who is educated, informed and has passed the learning curve of the tabletop rpgs we have had till now 4e may be the best game in the world right now. Same for who has the possibility of the available time needed to make most out of 4e. But is 4e enough to compete with MMOs for the casual gamer? One that is not allready invested in fantasy gaming but he could be interested or fascinated to give it a small bit effort? Today the smaller this bit of effort has to be, the more MMOs seem to win over D&D. In other words D&D faces an uphill battle. It should play on its strengths and try to keep what it can keep. To secure the possibility to be able to permanently achieve this it should be optimized to thrive on the land it draws its strength from. This is my core premise.

If D&D wanted to play to its strengths, it should build a fun action-fantasy combat based game. Like 4E.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I am not avoiding my core premise cause this is not my core premise
My premise is that Wotc failed to make a game that is especially build to especially promote the fun of the tabletop experience in front of the MMO games for the most basic or casual modern consumer level of entertainment. For who is educated, informed and has passed the learning curve of the tabletop rpgs we have had till now 4e may be the best game in the world right now. Same for who has the possibility of the available time needed to make most out of 4e. But is 4e enough to compete with MMOs for the casual gamer? One that is not allready invested in fantasy gaming but he could be interested or fascinated to give it a small bit effort? Today the smaller this bit of effort has to be, the more MMOs seem to win over D&D. In other words D&D faces an uphill battle. It should play on its strengths and try to keep what it can keep. To secure the possibility to be able to permanently achieve this it should be optimized to thrive on the land it draws its strength from. This is my core premise.

Do you think games like Spirit of the Century, Mircolite D20, or the Song of Ice and Fire would fullfill your requirements? How many different RPG systems have you tried?

 

[xechnao]

If D&D wanted to play to its strengths, it should build a fun action-fantasy combat based game. Like 4E.

I would say a tabletop roleplaying game that can deliver the most fun action-fantasy combat. And we are not there yet, I think. Many D&D gamers like you may think we are. Come 5e, you may change your mind and like the newer edition even better. This is normal, no? I am just trying to tell my opinion on what the vision of the future of the game should be and why, give my reasons why I think what I think for the evolution of the game.

 

[Windjammer]

Mystery files: Amazon.com should have gone out of business in 1994. Why didn't it?

what's going to happen is that MMO are going to continue to evolve until they reach the point of being able to deliver a fidelity of experience better than the tabletop ever could - and then they'll keep evolving past that point to deliver experiences we can only just now begin to imagine. The technical limitations people often cite are going to just be blown away by the combination of Moore's Law and a business model that is about a million times more profitable than the tabletop model. Our kids will play in virtual worlds that would seem like hallucinations to us today - Clarke's Law will obtain, and this advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic in a lot of ways.

Perhaps in my lifetime (all being well), virtual worlds that encroach upon, and then eclipse, our own imaginations will start to emerge...

No offense, but unlike you I had a hard time to not burst out laughing at that part in Ryan's blog post.

Take a step back and try to discern a single difference of the bit I quoted to:

Oh yeah, movies distributed on videotape/internet/[insert random IT'S TECHNOLOGY - FROM THE FUTURE! here] are so going to transplant people's own imagination. No books in tomorrow's world!

The brilliance of playing a P&P RPG is that you, the player, supply the visuals. What makes them gratifying isn't solely the quality of the visuals but also the fact that YOU supplied them when no one else could. When you would let no one else have done that for you. Factor in the social experience of sharing these personal imaginings with friends, and you already have two things which MMOs don't and won't simulate because that's not what people will ever want or need them for.

External visual culture is rampant in our own day, and will be on the increase. But it doesn't ever stand a chance of supplanting internal visual culture. Not as long as there are people who appreciate the difference. Everyone who ever read, and was captivated by, a book knows the difference. So don't let Ryan fool you into thinking that one day that difference will go away.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I would say a tabletop roleplaying game that can deliver the most fun action-fantasy combat. And we are not there yet, I think. Many D&D gamers like you may think we are. Come 5e, you may change your mind and like the newer edition even better. This is normal, no? I am just trying to tell my opinion on what the vision of the future of the game should be and why, give my reasons why I think what I think for the evolution of the game.

I just listen to your gaming opinions and what you want out of a game and it doesn't really sound like any D&D I've ever known.

 

[xechnao]

Do you think games like Spirit of the Century, Mircolite D20, or the Song of Ice and Fire would fullfill your requirements? How many different RPG systems have you tried?

It would be interesting I guess to see a game that draws the strong elements of spirit of the century and tries to have its take in a fantasy world of surviving monsters like D&D. Not necessarily using the mechanics of the fate system, a simpler core system like throw a D20 or D6 versus a target number that dictates what further options you may choose based on the result of your roll. Perhaps a game that mixes the interface of Sotc and the traditional options or even expands these options of a traditional fantasy world such as D&D.

 

[Corinth]

If D&D wanted to play to its strengths, it should build a fun action-fantasy combat based game. Like 4E.

WOW does everything that D&D4 does, but it's faster, easier and far more convenient than D&D4. Hence, I play WOW and not D&D4.