Ampersand: Martial Rituals in Martial Power 2

[thecasualoblivion]

Excuse me for not reading through the thread if this has already been said, but anyone else think the Monk class should have free access to these? At the very least the ability to take this feat without multiclassing, if not getting it for free despite not being martial. The Monk seems like the true home of these abilities.

 

[gribble]

Hmmm... not too sure I see the correlation. Disguise, Forgery and Pantomime? Not exactly the things monks are known for...

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Hmmm... not too sure I see the correlation. Disguise, Forgery and Pantomime? Not exactly the things monks are known for...

The face contorting thing is a classic Monk/Ninja/martial arts trope. I was thinking more along the lines of the physical athletic stuff though.

 

[Cadfan]

I'm not sure how you read these rules as saying Bluff can't be used for disguises or forgery separate from this. This give specific rules on doing such things in an exceptional fashion - I think you are making several jumps in logic to conclude it removes all ability to use your skills outside of it.

Your defense is nice as a concept, and would really make a lot of sense, except that I don't think the facts on the ground really bear out your interpretation.

Here's the entire reference in the existing skill rules to document forging and non magical disguises:

You can make a bluff check to fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, gamble, pass off a disguise or fake documentation, and otherwise tell lies.

There's also a "disguise kit" that grants +2 to bluff checks to conceal your identity, and a general statement that bluff is opposed by insight.

I just can't see how these add much value above and beyond that. Particularly the Precise Forgery practice.

IF there were an established baseline, and
IF these let you exceed the established baseline,
THEN I would think they were a good idea.

But instead it seems like they create an established baseline where no established baseline existed before. And since my group has been doing these sorts of things for some time using ye olde "make stuff up and roll a skill check" system, these practices so far are actually more restrictive than liberating.

 

[Byronic]

While Martial Practices sound like a good idea in theory (it's good to have some trained stuff for martial classes) I'm not so sure I like how it's been done. One of the things I don't like is the following:

Time: Martial practices take time to perform. You might have to adopt the right physical and mental state, sweat over a forge to craft an item, or painstakingly camouflage your party's campsite.

Component Costs: Martial practices are strenuous. Unlike rituals, which require only a material component cost, most martial practices require an expenditure of healing surges. This cost reflects the strain on your body and mind.

Now, if Wizards wants us to believe that asking someone where the bathroom is, using only gestures and expressions is so mentally and physically taxing that it requires you to spend a healing surge, okay.
I might disagree with Wizards there but okay.

However, take a wizard who's creating a magical item. Even one as deceptively simple as one that can do fire damage at will.

The wizard has the sword, which has been suitably forged. Perhaps sharpened using ground up dragon teeth and such. The Wizard spends half an hour painstakingly drawing the right signs, sigils, runes and such using precious materials. Because God help them all if the powers invoked are not properly contained. He then, using nothing less then the power of his Arcane Will, opens up a fissure to the elemental plane of fire, ripping out a Fire Elemental, a being that has existed since the dawn of creation and binds it into the giant elemental ruby at the heart of the sword.

And this is less physically and mentally taxing then playing charades?

Now, I know that wizards and such have been nerfed in 4th edition (relative to how they were before) and okay. It's good for class balance. I'm happy with the change.

But now an experienced tourist, needing so desperately to wee in a foreign country and is willing to give it his all to make sure he's understood is somehow doing something more physically and mentally taxing?

 

[Saeviomagy]

The problems are twofold.

1. restriction by addition. New rules that say "this is how you disguise yourself" invalidate other non-explicit rules for the same thing, which sucks.

2. Surges are a terrible mechanic to use. Why? Because certain classes cannot afford to lose them. Defenders are the new skill kings, and rogues and rangers are left out, which seems very wrong.

 

[MrMyth]

But instead it seems like they create an established baseline where no established baseline existed before. And since my group has been doing these sorts of things for some time using ye olde "make stuff up and roll a skill check" system, these practices so far are actually more restrictive than liberating.

Except the quote you provided directly says you can use bluff exactly as you have been - there is no reason to assume these new abilities remove that option.

What are the extra benefits? Alter Ego gives a +5 bonus on the check, if nothing else. That's pretty solid. Precise Forgery seems to be a way to forge documents using Thievery, rather than Bluff. That's a new option - now, admittedly, if you were letting people use Thievery for that before, the issue that you are concerned about does arise. But I'd say your issue ends up actually being about the core rule decision to tie forgery into Bluff rather than Thievery.

So... you can continue to use Bluff to make disguises and fake documents, as per the normal rules. You can have characters with the feat and training able to be even better at disguise or use thievery to create false documents.

You can make a house rule to throw out "Precise Forgery" and have anyone able to make false documents using Thievery, which is no more a house rule than to say Thievery is the default skill for that in the first place. (And there is nothing wrong with either decision! But, again, your disagreement with the designers entirely originates in the PHB1, not with these new rules.)

The addition of these rules, either way, hasn't really changed anything.

 

[Cadfan]

I'm not convinced that forging documents was intended to be under Bluff before. I think that was a line for convincing someone, verbally, that the forged documents you are carrying are real ones. The line does say "passing off forged documents," not "creating forged documents," and using bluff to mimic someone's calligraphy sounds a bit silly.

I'll admit that its a little vague, but I think my reading is much, much, much closer to the text.

 

[Ferret]

I only have one thing to add, about spending healing surges to understanding NPCs with alien mindsets/unknown languages. Think of this TNG episode: Darmok - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That would need a Healing surge!

 

[gribble]

What are the extra benefits? Alter Ego gives a +5 bonus on the check, if nothing else.

Wrong. You're totally taking it out of context. As I said above, that +5 bonus has the cost of a feat (two if you aren't a martial class) plus a healing surge and 50gp every time you want to use it.
It also has the hidden cost of not being able to get assistance from the other PCs on the roll.

For that feat, I'd much rather take skill focus and be able to benefit from assistance. More often than not, you're going to be operating at higher than a +5 bonus when you do that, and it doesn't cost you anything.

Sure the feat investment in being able to perform MP gets you access to other MP as well, but then again the skill focus in bluff is going to be usable in a lot more situations than just disguising someone.

IMO, the only way to suitably balance it is to rule that this MP is the only way to adopt a disguise, which is too limiting.