Ampersand: Martial Rituals in Martial Power 2

[Drkfathr1]

Maybe you'd like a few days off to go take an extended rest? No?

Well, then cut out the threadcrapping. If you dislike 4e so much, don't read 4e threads. Stop wasting your own and everyone else's time and goodwill with this empty malarky.

Wow, forgive my apparently totally failed attempt at humor. Trying to lighten the mood in here, not trying to threadcrap.

 

[Rechan]

I for one welcome our new martial ritual using stuff.

The idea of rituals for 'swimming to great depths' make me think of Beowulf swimming for five straight days, and other Herculean things.

Also I have nothing against the healing surge cost. Healing Surges are one of the few "resource management" aspects of the system, so actually using them is good.

 

[Cadfan]

Ugh, I hate that attitude. I had DMs that would pull this all the time - it doesn't matter how good my character might be at disarming traps, if I personally could not explain how I was disabling it - and somehow predict, despite not being a thief/rogue myself, how to bypass the dangers of the trap, it would go off in my face.

I only require it if I can't figure out how or why something would work.

The extreme example of your point of view is,

Thief: I steal his pants!

Dm: What? He's wearing them!

*clattering of dice*

Thief: Forty five!

Dm: Uh, I guess you steal his pants?

Party: Sweet...

So if you're disarming a trap with Thiever, I'm not going to quiz you. I figure you do thiefy stuff and maybe it works. But when you announce to me that you're disguising your male tiefling fighter as a halfling, I'm going to ask you how. Because it doesn't seem plausible on its face for anyone, no matter their skill level.

They shouldn't conflict with normal skill use, because they are taking things to another level. A character can still use basic disguise and forgery on their own, in the normal means - these just provide some additional methods that will generally be more effective for those who have invested the time and effort in mastering and using them.

That's a nice theory, but it doesn't really apply. The PHB doesn't mention anything about disguising yourself that I can remember. Certainly nothing in the Bluff entry. It would seem that the only official way to disguise yourself is with this training, or with magic. Likewise I can't seem to find any "regular" way to forge a document.

Those facts notwithstanding, I've been allowing this kind of thing with skill checks. I don't really feel that disallowing it and requiring a feat to accomplish the same thing is increasing value.

Like I said before, IF and WHEN these trainings provide new ways to use skills, I'll like them a lot. Its just not entirely clear that this has happened- instead, they retroactively take away an existing (although apparently houseruled) way to use skills, and then offer it back, slightly adjusted.

If I'm wrong, and the PHB offers a "regular" way to disguise yourself, and if this martial training stuff is different and better than the regular way, I'll happily take back everything I've said about this particular training if you just point out the page number or compendium reference where this is demonstrated.

 

[kevtar]

The first thing I thought of when I read the 'martial practice' was Bruenor creating Aegis Fang. I think he lost a healing surge or two on that one. From my initial pass on martial practices, I think they add something new to the game without making the wizard (or ritual casters) superfluous.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I saw. Like I said, I don't dislike all of them.

Would you allow that with a makeup kit plus this feat? I wouldn't unless the player could describe to me, in game, how his disguise worked. And if the explanation made sense I'd probably allow it with or without the feat. The feat doesn't seem to add value.

I would berate this idea, but Mr Myth said it well enough

Ugh, I hate that attitude. I had DMs that would pull this all the time - it doesn't matter how good my character might be at disarming traps, if I personally could not explain how I was disabling it - and somehow predict, despite not being a thief/rogue myself, how to bypass the dangers of the trap, it would go off in my face.

I'm not a 7th level Rogue. I'm not trained in disarming traps, or opening locks, or most of my character's skills. One doesn't require the Fighter to prove they can lift weights and swing a sword in order for their character to do so - one should not require similar ability for a character to make use of their skills. I understand why you would want that, but I think it can be really unfair to certain characters to tie their capabilities to those of the player, while not doing so for others.

until you require a wizard to explain how his teleport works...although with my examoe I have a whole MI feel with rubber masks...

 

[Cadfan]

Oh, and I forgot. The other side of the 'don't make people explain things, just let them use their abilities" position is that its absolutely worthless when your players want to accomplish something that isn't actually an ability or in the rules. Like, say, disguising yourself or forging a document, yesterday before this preview article was published.

 

[Rechan]

Oh, and I forgot. The other side of the 'don't make people explain things, just let them use their abilities" position is that its absolutely worthless when your players want to accomplish something that isn't actually an ability or in the rules. Like, say, disguising yourself or forging a document, yesterday before this preview article was published.

You mean the extreme end of a view is clunky and doesn't work under certain circumstances?

Knock me over with a feather.

The sensible thing is 'If the rules don't cover it, then have them roll an approrpiate skill check, or an impromptu skill challenge'.

 

[MrMyth]

Nope. It just says "This cost reflects the strain on your body and mind."

I want somebody to explain how to communicate with somebody which language is "alien" would "strain your body and mind".

Well, it probably requires a lot of effort to speak Loudly and Slowly.

But more seriously, I can definitely see it representing the difficulty of really trying to understand an alien mindset, trying to avoid any miscommunications, the stress of wondering if what you are saying is actually getting across (or if you are inviting them to kill your friends and invade your country), the worry over whether you'll get the point across before your party's barbarian gets bored and just starts hitting things...

I can see that being stressful. Pushing yourself to succeed despite the burdens of the situation, managing to really mesh with the mentality of creatures you have never before encountered or dealt with, and managing a level of communication that would make our world's greatest cryptologist envious... yeah, that can take a lot out of a guy. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Shroomy]

You know, martial practices are nice and all, but I think that the DDI moving to a 5-day a week release schedule is pretty interesting news too.

 

[avin]

wn and dissect it, we're implying that 10 straight minutes of pantomime is necessary to eke out the meaning of things like location of water or "which way did the baddy go". If we're going to continue down this conceit of "what i can do to real life should be mappable to D&D" then i would point out that collective understanding among humans and shared symbolism/physiology creates enough of a common ground that you can quickly portray things like "where is the bathroom" or "what time is it?". That being said, the ritual works for anything, including non-humanoids or even bizarre intelligent beasts.

Now, let's take a step back for a second. Not everything in D&D is going to be a perfect real world simulation. The general idea is that the use of healing surges to represent "strain" is going to get us "close enough" without us trying to literally interpret it as having to cut yourself to speak with animals. Beyond that, use your friggin imagination! Why does the book have to tell you EXACTLY what that healing surge is buying you? That's a waste of text and it doesn't even add fluff. Think outside the box, make up your own reasons, do the pantomiming at the table and describe alongside the DM the ridiculous hand gestures you try to convey the meaning. Most people are content to say "it must be tough to communicate with people with whom you don't share a language" but that doesn't mean there needs to be a paragraph to satisfy everyone else.

Sorry, dude, I'm not convinced. The "grandmother" example given by Ktulu is more close to what I'm inclined to accept as an example in game.

I use my imagination all the time when DMing and your explanation, with all due respect, sounds more like a repeating of the generic lines from Wotc article.

It's not that stressful. Been there, done there, don't buy your arguments but I think most people is willing to accept in table, heck, I know a lot of people who wouldn't spend a second roleplaying it.

It seems that the article satisfies your needs and most people's, but not mine and it only contributes to terrible image of roleplaying in 4E edition some people have.

On my DM imagination spending a healing surge with pantomining is ridiculous nonsense...