Got to agree on this one. It makes me sad, because the martial classes are usually the ones that cause me the fewest problems with un-fluffable crunch. With the other power sources, WotC is all too willing to just wave their hands and say, "A wizard did it."
Ampersand: Martial Rituals in Martial Power 2
Got to agree on this one. It makes me sad, because the martial classes are usually the ones that cause me the fewest problems with un-fluffable crunch. With the other power sources, WotC is all too willing to just wave their hands and say, "A wizard did it."
Ugh, I hate that attitude. I had DMs that would pull this all the time - it doesn't matter how good my character might be at disarming traps, if I personally could not explain how I was disabling it - and somehow predict, despite not being a thief/rogue myself, how to bypass the dangers of the trap, it would go off in my face.
I'm not a 7th level Rogue. I'm not trained in disarming traps, or opening locks, or most of my character's skills. One doesn't require the Fighter to prove they can lift weights and swing a sword in order for their character to do so - one should not require similar ability for a character to make use of their skills. I understand why you would want that, but I think it can be really unfair to certain characters to tie their capabilities to those of the player, while not doing so for others.
The point of these abilities is that they are the height of talent, and demonstrations of capability that are within human ability, but so far beyond the default as to be out of reach of most people.
They shouldn't conflict with normal skill use, because they are taking things to another level. A character can still use basic disguise and forgery on their own, in the normal means - these just provide some additional methods that will generally be more effective for those who have invested the time and effort in mastering and using them.
My group knows a ritual that lets us magically learn the rumors circulating through a city - that doesn't render Streetwise meaningless, it just gives us another way to gather information in the right circumstances. (Like, recently, when the entire party found ourselves in an eladrin city in the Feywild - as obvious outsiders, asking certain questions around town would have tipped people off about our interest, but staying in our room and performing the ritual avoided that problem. In a normal city, on the other hand, we probably wouldn't bother.)
I don't think these abilities will override normal skill use any more than similar rituals do - both are simply other tools in a character's arsenal. Now, I could be wrong - we haven't seen them all, yet. But I'd be really surprised if we see some that completely render normal skill use null and void.
I am eager to see the crafting stuff - I like the idea that some epic craftsman can forge a legendary blade simply through his own skill, rather than needing to also be a spellcaster.
Badwe
First Post
enworld ate my more eloquent and fully quoted response to some of the complaints:
healing surges: the article actually explains what they're meant to represent in general terms. believe it or not, for some people this engenders roleplaying.
disguise: the ritual enhances the very skill check people are saying it replaces. it also allows the best bluffer to make the check for others. ever try to get a whole group to stealth? making the bluff checks for everyone else is much better.
so let's put those two arguments to bed.
healing surges: the article actually explains what they're meant to represent in general terms. believe it or not, for some people this engenders roleplaying.
disguise: the ritual enhances the very skill check people are saying it replaces. it also allows the best bluffer to make the check for others. ever try to get a whole group to stealth? making the bluff checks for everyone else is much better.
so let's put those two arguments to bed.
Ktulu
First Post
Thank you, Mr. Myth. You summed up my thoughts clearer than I could.
I, for one, love these and can't wait to put them to use. I see them as the opposite of skill challenges.
Rituals/practices are used by players to do X with planning.
Skill challenges are when players want to do X on the fly, or end up in a situation created by the plot (DM).
I.e., if I'm breaking into a vault and get caught, I would do a skill challenge to bluff my way out of the situation.
However, if I planned ahead and used the disguise practice, I look like one of the guards on duty and can avoid that situation all together.
Color me elated... or fuschia... whichever you have.
I, for one, love these and can't wait to put them to use. I see them as the opposite of skill challenges.
Rituals/practices are used by players to do X with planning.
Skill challenges are when players want to do X on the fly, or end up in a situation created by the plot (DM).
I.e., if I'm breaking into a vault and get caught, I would do a skill challenge to bluff my way out of the situation.
However, if I planned ahead and used the disguise practice, I look like one of the guards on duty and can avoid that situation all together.
Color me elated... or fuschia... whichever you have.
avin
First Post
Nope. It just says "This cost reflects the strain on your body and mind."
I want somebody to explain how to communicate with somebody which language is "alien" would "strain your body and mind".
It's easy to sit down and write mechanical therms then give it some metagame explanation. But where's the real in game explanation?
If it "engenders roleplaying" why not provide us with an example?
I've already had to communicate with people which language I have no clue at all and my body and mind weren't stressed at all.
Ktulu
First Post
I'll give you a great example. Call up your grandmother*. Now, spend the next hour trying to describe and explain how to setup VOIP.. Walk her through everything until it works.
If your head back, mind, stress, tired, and calm doesn't hurt by the time you're done, well...you're awesome. I've spent the last 7 years working in forms of tech support; from basic internet, to the advanced interfacing I do today. It still hurts when I get a layman on the phone.
*appologies to grandmothers who are networking specialists.
Badwe
First Post
First:
to which i respond:
Next:
to which:
so if we're going to sit down and dissect it, we're implying that 10 straight minutes of pantomime is necessary to eke out the meaning of things like location of water or "which way did the baddy go". If we're going to continue down this conceit of "what i can do to real life should be mappable to D&D" then i would point out that collective understanding among humans and shared symbolism/physiology creates enough of a common ground that you can quickly portray things like "where is the bathroom" or "what time is it?". That being said, the ritual works for anything, including non-humanoids or even bizarre intelligent beasts.
Now, let's take a step back for a second. Not everything in D&D is going to be a perfect real world simulation. The general idea is that the use of healing surges to represent "strain" is going to get us "close enough" without us trying to literally interpret it as having to cut yourself to speak with animals. Beyond that, use your friggin imagination! Why does the book have to tell you EXACTLY what that healing surge is buying you? That's a waste of text and it doesn't even add fluff. Think outside the box, make up your own reasons, do the pantomiming at the table and describe alongside the DM the ridiculous hand gestures you try to convey the meaning. Most people are content to say "it must be tough to communicate with people with whom you don't share a language" but that doesn't mean there needs to be a paragraph to satisfy everyone else.
to which i respond:
Next:
to which:
so if we're going to sit down and dissect it, we're implying that 10 straight minutes of pantomime is necessary to eke out the meaning of things like location of water or "which way did the baddy go". If we're going to continue down this conceit of "what i can do to real life should be mappable to D&D" then i would point out that collective understanding among humans and shared symbolism/physiology creates enough of a common ground that you can quickly portray things like "where is the bathroom" or "what time is it?". That being said, the ritual works for anything, including non-humanoids or even bizarre intelligent beasts.
Now, let's take a step back for a second. Not everything in D&D is going to be a perfect real world simulation. The general idea is that the use of healing surges to represent "strain" is going to get us "close enough" without us trying to literally interpret it as having to cut yourself to speak with animals. Beyond that, use your friggin imagination! Why does the book have to tell you EXACTLY what that healing surge is buying you? That's a waste of text and it doesn't even add fluff. Think outside the box, make up your own reasons, do the pantomiming at the table and describe alongside the DM the ridiculous hand gestures you try to convey the meaning. Most people are content to say "it must be tough to communicate with people with whom you don't share a language" but that doesn't mean there needs to be a paragraph to satisfy everyone else.
I've spent the last few years in a foreign country. I've managed to pick up enough so that, if I really, really try I can make myself understood. I can personally attest that communicating with someone with whom you only share the universal language of "Broken" is a very taxing experience. Now imagine that you don't even have that to go on, and might not even have the appropriate organs for communication.
I keep losing healing surges trying to like 4E.
Maybe you'd like a few days off to go take an extended rest? No?
Well, then cut out the threadcrapping. If you dislike 4e so much, don't read 4e threads. Stop wasting your own and everyone else's time and goodwill with this empty malarky.
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