WHy do druids and clerics get special treatment?

[IronWolf]

Flashy?
Like Hold Person, etc?

Or by Flashy do you mean damage spells?

Yes, Hold Person can be useful. Of course an equivalent level wizard could easily cast web and control a much larger portion of the battlefield or break out a scorching ray spell for some flashy fun!

 

[concerro]

Just something I've always wondered.

Why do the druid and cleric get medium bab, better hp, and armor access, while retaining full spellcasting?

It's been often said that they were the most powerful class.

Take a look at the summoner. Other than summon spells, he casts like a bard for that medium bab and d8.

Are there reasons that the druid and cleric should cast up to 9th level spells instead of being capped at 6? (d10 hd: armor + 4th level spell cap, d8 hd: lighter armor + 6th level spell cap, d6 hd: no armor + 9th level cap?)

am I the only one who sees the cleric and druid as a wizard with an "infinite spell list" and nonmagical combat abilities to boot?

I'm not saying this thought is right. Maybe it makes sense as is. if so, I wouldn't mind hearing an explanation as to why.

"Full Casting" is misleading. The arcane spells are a lot better than the divine spells. The squishy wizard is still the most powerful class according to most people.

 

[Aus_Snow]

If you believe that they still are, and if you happen to be right, it would be a legacy thing.

Otherwise, it's historical. Time was, no-one wanted to play one, and with good reason, for the most part (in terms of mechanics and play experience, generally) - so, they got bumped up, big time.

Class balance is such a funny thing, because it brings out such extreme claims and exclamations. Online, at least. . .

 

[joela]

I had those discussions in 3.x, I just find it odd that they weren't addressed in pfrpg.

The issue was probably brought up in the open playtesting as well. I assumed clerics and druids maintained full-casting for backwards compatibility.

 

[Herobizkit]

I second the Cloistered Cleric variant. It is the "official" Cleric IMC. You want to be a good warrior with some priest magic? Play a Paladin, 'cuz that's what they do.

 

[Votan]

If you believe that they still are, and if you happen to be right, it would be a legacy thing.

Otherwise, it's historical. Time was, no-one wanted to play one, and with good reason, for the most part (in terms of mechanics and play experience, generally) - so, they got bumped up, big time.

Class balance is such a funny thing, because it brings out such extreme claims and exclamations. Online, at least. . .

My experience of high level 3.5E play (let you know about high level pathfinder in about a year) is that full casters could dominate above 15th level (only), but this is highly dependent on campaign style and assumptions. It's notable that a lot of the adventure paths top out around here:

Rise of the Runelords: 15th level
Curse of the Crimson Throne: 16th level
Second Darkness: 16th level
Legacy of Fire: 15th level
Council of Thieves: 13th level
Kingmaker: 15th level (but doesn't give a range)
Sepent's Skull: 15th level (but doesn't give a range)

The reason I bring this up is, if you accept that there is a caster/non-caster imbalance, most reports (and my own experience) suggest that it does not show up until you get to above these levels. My 3.5E experience involved combinations of feats, items and abilities that were perhaps not perfectly thought out -- none of these seem to exist in Pathfinder.

So it is worth considering that, if the cleric is slightly too strong, it is an issue that won't show up (if at all) until the extreme end of the campaign. These also happen to be levels that the non-caster classes get some new and interesting abilities (look at weapon and armor mastery for the Fighter or the high level Paladin abilities).

 

[Liquidsabre]

I think it has already been said but it should be stressed. Do not make the mistake of comparing the Druid and Cleric spell lists with that of the arcane spell list. The druid comes close but by far the arcane list has a lot more high damaging spells, battlefield control, enhancements, utility, and nastier debuffs than the divine caster lists. Because of the greater power inherent on the arcane spell list the divine casters are compensated with other abilities.

 

[IronWolf]

Kingmaker: 15th level (but doesn't give a range)

The final Kingmaker AP expects you to be around 15th at the start and hitting 17th at the end.

 

[Psion]

As for why they get their entire spell list free, I've always kinda disliked this too, though their spell list doesn't even begin to compare to the wiz/sor list for power and versatility.

I believe that in 3e, the "know all spells" thing was instrumental in making the abusable. Because every new supplement that comes out, et voila! You know all the new power-escalating spells!

 

[Votan]

The final Kingmaker AP expects you to be around 15th at the start and hitting 17th at the end.

Fair enough. Even with that range, if we assume minor balance issue between casters (e.g. clerics) and non-casters begin after 16th level than they would be present for a very small portion of the adventure.

That doesn't seem like it is worth a class redesign over!