Possible build advice; Defender

[Theroc]

Going to be playing in an Eberron-setting game in the not too distant future(The DM is preparing), and we (the players) are working on our desired characters.

I sortof volunteered to be the defender because I commented that usually people don't like defenders and half the characters I'd like to try most are defenders. I do not really want to play a Warden, as I already have been playing one and would like to give other classes a chance. I'm also trying to stay away from Dragonborn... since... almost every character I've made in 4th Edition was one. >.>

The main class I had in mind was a swordmage(since I was always trying to make 'gish' characters in Version 3.5...) but after comparing the Warden's Marking mechanic with the Swordmages, I am worried I won't be able to properly protect the party. I'm also having spasms because there isn't really an available race that matches the stat priorities of a Shielding Swordmage, lol.

Game Info I have so far -
Available books: All. We will be using the Themes from Dark Sun as well.

Starting Level: Uncertain, I assume 1st.

Other characters:
A Melee Built Human warlock - He's got his whole character planned out, so he may post a skeleton in here to give you guys some more info.
A Human or Kalashtar Monk - Build unknown to me
A Githzerai(probably) Artificer - Build unknown to me
An unknown 4th.

I've also been considering taking a look at the Paladin and the Fighter classes as well, but haven't ruled out the Swordmage yet. (Never was really into the Psionics that much, but I may try one out if someone makes a really good point)

I guess this is rather vague, but hopefully I'll get some input that will help me settle in a direction.

 

[LuckyAdrastus]

I played a shielding swordmage in a campaign from 1st through 4th level, and we were never suffering from a weak defender (if I do say so myself). I've often heard that the assault and ensnaring builds are weak, but I'm not so sure from reading them. I haven't seen them enough to say one way or the other. I did play in a campaign for a few levels with an assaulting swordmage who contributed plenty, but there was another defender in that party.

The Mark of Passage fits really well with the mechanics of a swordmage. It boosts shifts and teleports, which swordmages make all of the time. The PP for that Mark also fits swordmages well.

You may not like that option because the Mark of Passage normally appears on humans, and it appears that your party already has a lot of those.

You may also want to consider skills; your party appears to have a lot of Intelligence based classes, and possibly may cover wisdom skills well, based on the builds of the artificer and monk. So you might want to consider a defender who can also act as the "face" -- a Paladin or Battlemind that uses Charisma. Battlemind has a quite a few detractors, but they have worked fine in my experience. Really, any defender should be able to fill the role fine.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You've got a melee line there (You, Monk, Artificer, and Melee Warlock are all people who can do hand to hand) - so you don't need an incredible amount of defendering. And at that point Swordmages work very well. (They aren't Wardens who can hold the line against everyone at once. But mark someone the far side of the monk then charge across the battlefield and make them chase you or take -2 to hit and nerfed damage...)

Shielding is good - Ensnaring are a little weak but the only problem with Assault is that they think they are strikers. (There's some nasty synergy with Tiefling Assault Swordmages and fire powers).

Feats: Intelligent Blademaster. This is necessary to make you sticky.

Paladins - I love charisma paladins. Especially by twisting Divine Sanction into an automatic debuff-and-damage. (Sanction everyone in close burst 3 - then Run Away! (Or just go invisible if you're a gnome). They all (in a 7*7 area) take -2 to hit and some automatic damage for the round by not trying to hit you. Or they need to jump through hoops and completely wreck most of their turn.

 

[Kerranin]

You've got a melee line there (You, Monk, Artificer, and Melee Warlock are all people who can do hand to hand) - so you don't need an incredible amount of defendering. And at that point Swordmages work very well. (They aren't Wardens who can hold the line against everyone at once. But mark someone the far side of the monk then charge across the battlefield and make them chase you or take -2 to hit and nerfed damage...)

Shielding is good - Ensnaring are a little weak but the only problem with Assault is that they think they are strikers. (There's some nasty synergy with Tiefling Assault Swordmages and fire powers).

Feats: Intelligent Blademaster. This is necessary to make you sticky.

Paladins - I love charisma paladins. Especially by twisting Divine Sanction into an automatic debuff-and-damage. (Sanction everyone in close burst 3 - then Run Away! (Or just go invisible if you're a gnome). They all (in a 7*7 area) take -2 to hit and some automatic damage for the round by not trying to hit you. Or they need to jump through hoops and completely wreck most of their turn.

And, knowing you, you'd also encourage everyone else to provoke opportunity attacks at the same time. I speak from experience when I say it is generally better to have a melee-heavy group than a ranged-heavy group. There was a session I played where my charisma paladin was the only melee character, and obviously this does not suit paladins. I almost died twice, last death save both times... doesn't help when all the ranged try to move away to max range either.

 

[eamon]

Going to be playing in an Eberron-setting game in the not too distant future(The DM is preparing), and we (the players) are working on our desired characters.

The main class I had in mind was a swordmage(since I was always trying to make 'gish' characters in Version 3.5...) but after comparing the Warden's Marking mechanic with the Swordmages, I am worried I won't be able to properly protect the party. I'm also having spasms because there isn't really an available race that matches the stat priorities of a Shielding Swordmage, lol.

The Githyanki (normally an MM race) has Int/Con, and is a nice fit thematically as well - and hardly out of place if there's a Githzerai around. On the other hand, Humans work excellently, particularly at low levels (as always) due to the extra feat and extra at-will (which matter less at high levels). Swordmages are all about high defenses, so Deva (with extra defense vs. bloodied creatures) aren't that bad, and Eladrin have a nice racial sword-boosting feat and a class-specific one too. Really, anything with an Int bonus is nice, and you can make some synergy surrounding teleportation if you try. Whatever you do, make sure your Int is very high; you really want monsters triggering your mark, and that means making attacking you unattractive. Ideally, you'll have one creature marked (and not attacking you) and use positioning and other means to pin down another. A high Int works wonders since it makes your mark-violation penalty powers hit more often (critical, since these are excellent), you deal more damage, and you have a higher AC/Ref (meaning you'll be targeted less or if you're targeted, hit less).

Intelligent Blademaster is nice, but I don't think it's quite as good as people make it out to be - a shielding swordmage's strength is in his mark, not in OA's, so you want it, but not necessarily as your first choice.

If you're playing in paragon at all, be aware of the stat-prereq of Greater Swordmage Warding; you'll want to start with Str 12, Con 12 at the least.

Fighters are all around quite nice; Paladin's have a particularly simple mark without action requirement (which does unfortunately mean the effect is "public"), and they have lay-on-hands; a bit of extra minor-action healing when you need it most really helps.

Starting Level: Uncertain, I assume 1st.

Right off the bat, that makes human a good choice. They aren't weak in any case, and the extra flexibility makes play more fun (not to mention the character more powerful) right away.

 

[Mengu]

Do you have your heart set on Swordmage? If you have an artificer and a warlock in the party, those are both arcane characters, and have intelligence primary and secondary respectively. Depending on their builds, they may also have constitution secondary and primary respectively. You may be creating a weakness in the party by playing yet another intelligence and constitution based arcane character. Also monk and swordmage both basically get the same ally friendly close burst at-will power, which is another bit of overlap. For the party composition this does not bode well.

Artificers work really solid with fighters, especially tempest fighters. You'll have an easy enough time multi-marking out of the gate. You also end up with good initiative, which is important for a defender. If you have to have your stats line up just right, you don't have a lot of racial options, half-orc is pretty much it (though it is a very good option), but if you're a little more flexible, longtooth shifter, human, warforged, drow, elf, wilden, revenant, and the essentials halfling all make reasonably good candidates.

 

[Theroc]

Haha, good stuff guys.

To address some questions:
No, I'm not set on swordmage... however, if I go fighter, it's not gonna be Tempest. If I wanna dual wield, I'll (probably) roll a Ranger or Barbarian(They have a dual wield build now, don't they?) I'd much prefer hefting a big two-hander as a Warforged fighter(Especially if that means I get to play with their... upgrade system?)

Eamon: Regarding Githyanki, I don't have the MM, and I am leery of using a MM race as a primary race, primarily because it would imply much reduced support, unlike the PHB and other such races.

In regards to other races: The primary ones in consideration were Shadar-Kai, Eladrin, Human and Deva(Since all get a boost to Intelligence)... I'm primarily undecided because I'd need to look at all the feats and such that they offer, to see which ends up suiting the SM more.

Mengu: Regarding the weakness due to similar priority stats - Is this a serious weakness? It seems to me it would primarily become a possible issue in skill-challenge related encounters primarily. If so, I suppose it may become a problem with lacking wisdom(Though I've been considering the Wandering Swordmage PP which would force me to up my wisdom... thus countering that weakness)

 

[Mengu]

Mengu: Regarding the weakness due to similar priority stats - Is this a serious weakness? It seems to me it would primarily become a possible issue in skill-challenge related encounters primarily. If so, I suppose it may become a problem with lacking wisdom(Though I've been considering the Wandering Swordmage PP which would force me to up my wisdom... thus countering that weakness)

In my experience it is. In one of our groups, we have 3 nature people, and 0 arcana people, and that weakness has cost us a few tasks we were unable to accomplish, and a few tasks we couldn't complete.

In a lot of LFR games with random people, we run into this all the time, where we have no charisma people and fail social checks, or no wisdom people and we fail a nature/perception themed skill challenge. When you get to design a party from scratch minimizing overlap and maximizing coverage just yields a fuller experience in term of what you can do. I'd make sure you have all mental stats covered as a primary or secondary in the party. Strength and Dexterity usually take care of themselves, though I've seen cases where a cobbled together group had no dexterity, very poor initiative, and started most encounters with half the party bloodied from monsters gaining initiative.

Constitution is probably the least important stat to cover, though a good candidate for Comrades' Succor is always appreciated. And some stats/skills, are good to have double coverage for, such as Wisdom due to Perception and Insight.

I think a Warforged Greatweapon Fighter could work quite nicely, though if you go Str/Con, there really isn't that much help from him for skill coverage compared to the Swordmage, so at that point it really doesn't make too much difference which one you pick. As a matter of fact, Deva, Eladrin or Human swordmage would likely contribute more to skill challenges than the Warforged.

 

[Shin Okada]

It is somewhat hard to guess what type of defender will work best in your party, as the 4th PC is totally unknown. But I will try.

I tend to think like this, defenders can be divided into 2 categories,

Type 1) Heavy Tank
One who can stand between enemy melee combatants and party controllers and leaders. Who may be slow and not good at athletics skill or other movement-helping abilities. Better to have abilities to mark multiple opponents at a time.

Type 2) Light Tank
One who can penetrate enemy front-line and mark enemy artilleries or ranged controllers. Better to have good speed, good athletics skill or other movement-helping abilities, and some force-move powers to set some enemy melee combatant aside from your path to reach the target.

In my experience, basically, a swordmage makes a fine type 2 tank. They are lightly armored and tend to have some good powers to teleport and such.

On the other hand, Charisma-Din tend to be better classified as a Type 1 Heavy Tank. They are wearing plate and often using a heavy shield. And they tend to have sub-per strength. So, while tough and very good at stopping multiple opponents at once, a Charisma-din is slow and not good at athletics (-4 skill penalty is a burden, especially at heroic tier).

Though the 4th-member is still unknown, your party already has good number or tough melee combatants. So, maybe your party is not in serious need for a heavy tank. Thus, a swordmage light tank will work fine I guess. In my experience, shielding swordmage works very well. They are good at blasting multiple minions either, as they have some good close powers.

You can build some good light tank from Str-based defender class. High strength give them good athletics skill. A warden, though seems not to be a choice of yours, is a good one. But there are ways to make a Str-based defender faster. Eladrin can use Fey Step and thus can easily penetrate enemy front-line regardless of their class and build. Elf has speed of 7 and thus still not so slow even with -1 speed from wearing heavy armor. Some Str/Dex fighter can live without heavy armor. And if you can count on some magic items, there even be some magical heavy armors without speed penalty (Eladrin Armor, Mithral Plating and such).

I guess a party should better have someone with at least descent Nature and Dungeoneering skills for monster knowledge checks. But this aspect could be compensated later. You still don't know what the 4th member is. And you or other members can use either background rule or multiclass feat to take those skills.

 

[igniz13]

You've got two melee strikers, someone needs to play a Tactical Warlord or at least a Warpriest.

I wouldn't worry about your ability to defend your party as a Swordmage, all work fine.

Your party will probably be okay for survivability and damage, sadly a Con focused Warden may be the best choice.

However, you could also go for a Battlerager Fighter or a Brawler Fighter. Your Leader will want to use up other people's healing surges, so someone with plenty of those will be useful.

Assuming the 4th will be a Controller, an Ensnaring Swordmage may actually make sense, as you'll want to keep enemies where you want them whilst also providing CA to your allies. Human would suit you fine, just make sure you get the feat which slows targets you pull towards you with your Aegis of Ensnarment.