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Tension in combat

Torg was pretty good at dealing with tension like this. The card mechanic meant that the PCs (during Dramatic encounters) were behind the 8-ball to start, but as they put more cards from their hand into their pools, their ability to do some nasty damage continually increased.
 

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Here's an idea (just popped into my head).

My players play with their powers on cards. You could easily treat them as Torg Drama Deck cards.

Here's how it would work.

Each round after taking his action, the PC could put down one of his Encounter or Daily Attack powers. For his attack he can either use his at-wills or use one of his attack powers on the table.

The PC would get a bonus to his attack equal to the number of extra cards on the table.

This would have the effect of giving the PC an incentive to not use his big guns right away, but save them for later, and as he saves them, makes it more likely that they'd be able to hit.

The problem of course is that he can only normally use up one of those cards each round...so the attack bonus would stick around. However, you could use an option to 'use' more cards to boost the roll?

I'm not really sure how that'd work out in practice. In Torg usually what happened was that the PCs would save up their nova cards and then use them all at once, hoping for a 'Glory' result, or at the least, deal a massive amount of damage.
 

SlyDoubt

First Post
I guess there are a couple questions and comments that come out of this though. I don't disagree that "be a better DM" is an adequate response to a question of better game design, the two things are orthogonal to each other. OTOH I still come back to my response, which is that adding more book keeping to my game isn't something that appeals to me. Maybe it is an answer for some people, I can't speak for others. I just know I don't want it.

My other observation/question is just this. How is 4e different in this respect than any other version of D&D? In most respects 4e seems rather better in this department.

The difference is that in 3.x the system is very easy to run on the fly and without a grid, minis, a specific encounter format, etc. It forces the DM to grapple with the difficult parts of being a DM from the start. 4E does not. It's wonderful mechanically but in doing so leaves less wiggle room. 4E is like a fine tuned Swiss time piece. Everything is calculated to create this consistently entertaining expirience game in game out. For the most part it does this but not without its share of problems. This thread is an example of one that I agree with and likewise I have no desire to add extra bookkeeping to the game.
 

The difference is that in 3.x the system is very easy to run on the fly and without a grid, minis, a specific encounter format, etc. It forces the DM to grapple with the difficult parts of being a DM from the start. 4E does not. It's wonderful mechanically but in doing so leaves less wiggle room. 4E is like a fine tuned Swiss time piece. Everything is calculated to create this consistently entertaining expirience game in game out. For the most part it does this but not without its share of problems. This thread is an example of one that I agree with and likewise I have no desire to add extra bookkeeping to the game.

My sense was more like 4e worked (mostly) correctly and gave me, the DM, the freedom to not worry so much about how things would run and deal with the story. In contrast before you had to spend most of your time worrying about whether or not the game mechanics etc would hold up, or tinkering with them, etc.

As opposed to the 'fine watch' analogy it is a bit like driving a high performance sports car. If you drive your family sedan around at 55 MPH it isn't really that much different, but if you decide you want to go 200 MPH you better have the Ferrari. 4e's rough spots show up a bit more easily, but you're driving 200 MPH, now, so yeah, you better know what you're doing.

In an ideal world 4e would turn any random elements into a great encounter, sure, but I just don't think that's possible. Because things ARE so smooth in most ways you really notice the flaws in the story, the encounters, etc more. So maybe its flaw is it is sort of too good. It can really show up DMing weaknesses.
 

Chzbro

First Post
Here's what I don't get about the thread: the "problem" of alpha striking parties that is "inherent" in the system seems to hint that the parties who do this take only encounters and dailies that do a lot of damage.

What about all the powers that push, pull, slide or otherwise affect the encounter area? Do alpha striking parties not have any of these powers? And does this lack not ever adversely affect them? Because if the players are able to consistently finish encounters easily purely by virtue of doing a lot of damage, then I think the advice of "build better encounters" is pretty useful.

If the PCs only choose to do damage as hard and as fast as they can because that's all they've ever needed to do to be successful, how is that a failing of the game rather than a failing of the encounters?

Likewise, why is it more tense to use "big" powers later in the fight rather than earlier? Isn't it just as tense to be out of heals, out of encounters, and trying to knock off the last few guys with at-wills before they kill you? Tension comes from depleting you resources and still having to fight on. Getting to round 3 with all your encounters and dailies does not equal more tension; it equals less. I have more options available to me.

Some of the ideas here are interesting, but I don't think I buy into the basic premise of the "problem." Saying the game is broken based on an out of context quote is a shaky foundation, but on top of that, I've never seen any evidence of this phenomenon in any of the games I've played. If it was a shortcoming inherent in the system, this wouldn't be true.

I recognize that it's possible that I've just been lucky in this regard, but honestly, if your players only choose powers with high damage expressions at the expense of battlefield control and succeed by doing so, the problem isn't with the game.
 

Here's what I don't get about the thread: the "problem" of alpha striking parties that is "inherent" in the system seems to hint that the parties who do this take only encounters and dailies that do a lot of damage.

What about all the powers that push, pull, slide or otherwise affect the encounter area? Do alpha striking parties not have any of these powers? And does this lack not ever adversely affect them? Because if the players are able to consistently finish encounters easily purely by virtue of doing a lot of damage, then I think the advice of "build better encounters" is pretty useful.

Well, I don't think it is really like that. All sorts of powers are handy when you want to unload on team monster. The wizard might toss a daily to AoE some monsters, AP, and toss out another attack to slow down some other monsters. The Warlord might toss out a daily to bunch some monsters together for the Wizard to fry, and then use an AP to grant the Fighter an MBA or buff all the other character's attacks. The strikers will probably unleash their most damaging assaults, but that is pretty much their schtick. A well-coordinated party is probably NOT all about nothing but dealing damage and is probably more effective using a good mix of powers.

If the PCs only choose to do damage as hard and as fast as they can because that's all they've ever needed to do to be successful, how is that a failing of the game rather than a failing of the encounters?

Likewise, why is it more tense to use "big" powers later in the fight rather than earlier? Isn't it just as tense to be out of heals, out of encounters, and trying to knock off the last few guys with at-wills before they kill you? Tension comes from depleting you resources and still having to fight on. Getting to round 3 with all your encounters and dailies does not equal more tension; it equals less. I have more options available to me.

This gets into the design of 4e. Lets look at it in contrast to AD&D (any flavor). In AD&D both sides are fundamentally glass cannons (the PCs definitely are and if the monsters are a threat they are too). If a party unleashes its 'alpha strike' the enemy is done for, and the encounter ends right there. Tension exists because death is always around the corner. You succeed mostly by arranging things so you get the drop on the enemy. Or the tension arises because the party has shot its wad and now has to hope they can high tail it out of dodge without running into anything too deadly so they can recharge.

4e effectively reduced the lethality of the most potent attacks. What it didn't, and to some extent can't, do is get rid of fundamental tactical logic. Striking hard and early is still the best tactic. If you're going to unload there's rarely a better time to do it than round 1. The problem arises because the monsters are still standing on round 2. They're decimated and they will go down, the outcome of the fight is no longer the issue. However you now have 4-5 more rounds of combat where the party needs to still finish off team monster, and either doesn't have or doesn't want to further dig into its supply of the good stuff. So you fall back to at-will and encounter powers that will do the job, but you have to spend 30-40 minutes in cleanup.

From the monster's perspective it is pretty much the same. They have usually got one or two nice one-use powers. They're going to pretty much unload those on round 1 as well, and then spend the rest of the fight trying to do as much damage as they can before they inevitably die.

So 4e fights, at least the important ones, tend to boil down to both sides unleashing quickly and then the action tends to slow down into slugfest mode. This is where the problem comes in.

Some of the ideas here are interesting, but I don't think I buy into the basic premise of the "problem." Saying the game is broken based on an out of context quote is a shaky foundation, but on top of that, I've never seen any evidence of this phenomenon in any of the games I've played. If it was a shortcoming inherent in the system, this wouldn't be true.

I recognize that it's possible that I've just been lucky in this regard, but honestly, if your players only choose powers with high damage expressions at the expense of battlefield control and succeed by doing so, the problem isn't with the game.

Well, the solutions proposed all boil down to trying to entice the players into not using their big guns right off. It isn't really a matter of damaging vs other sorts of powers. The PCs could use mostly powers with only secondary damage effects, the result then is just monsters that are all loaded with debilitating conditions. Either way the fight slows down, and in the second case it may actually slog more because cleanup takes longer.

I see two mechanical fixes. Either go back to the sort of 'Russian roulette' of earlier days where the potent powers on both sides are devastating and end the fight or induce the players not to strike right off.

The third solution is good encounter design, but there is an element of Oberroni Fallacy in there. Just because good play can make the game work well doesn't make it not a problem with the game itself. I think what I've proposed is that the medicine may be worse than the disease. That of course is open to question and in any case a matter of personal preference.

So maybe you aren't lucky, maybe you just have a very good sense of how to make encounters that work really well. In that case 4e works fine for you and there's no real need to think about it. My experience is I can USUALLY make it work well, but there are those encounters that just don't turn out the way you'd like, and they do usually drag when that happens.
 

Ahrimon

Bourbon and Dice
This whole, players alpha strike, monsters alpha strike, enter cleanup mode. Repeat ad nauseam. There's nothing we can do about it, it's the system. Seems like a defeatist attitude. Or that people have put on their blinders and can't see the other options sitting right next to them.

This is all in the DM's control. Mix things up. If the characters almost always unload in round one. Then have any intelligent monster should unload thier alpha defense abilities. Then in round two comes the alpha strike. The players are either going to be thinking they're in for a rough fight or that they need to beat feet. Either way, there the fear should be back. Or change up the scenery, make seperate avenues of approach so the PC's can't present a unified front and alpha strike. Each person may be able to, but they won't be able to focus and when their surrounded they'll start to worry. There are so many things that can be done. They won't all work, but if you don't try then there's no room to complain about how things are.
 

Chzbro

First Post
So maybe you aren't lucky, maybe you just have a very good sense of how to make encounters that work really well. In that case 4e works fine for you and there's no real need to think about it. My experience is I can USUALLY make it work well, but there are those encounters that just don't turn out the way you'd like, and they do usually drag when that happens.

I think I understand the issue a little better now after your explanation. I have seen times in fights where 1-2 stubborn bad guys just refused to die and really had no reasonable expectation to actually hurt the party. In those situations we typically just handwave the end of the fight (it's a foregone conclusion anyway). I can see how that might not be an acceptable solution to everyone.

However, the new damage expressions seem to have changed that dynamic (in my experience). Even if only one enemy remains, that enemy can deal 4d6+4 damage in a single blow, so there's still some tension. Maybe there's no chance for a TPK, but Teapot the elf still has a 50/50 shot of being decapitated.

I'm not trying to belittle the experiences or difficulties of others. However, it seems an unreasonable expectation to just be able to throw any proper xp budget together and call it a good encounter. Especially for a home campaign, the DM should know the tendencies and capabilities of his players and be able to design good encounters based on that knowledge. A DM should not say, "My players always alpha strike and ruin combat tension; my hands are tied." He should instead say, "My players always alpha strike and ruin combat tension; what steps can I take to add it back in?"

Because despite AbdulAlhazred's excellent explanation, I'm just not convinced that this is a phenomenon experienced equally at every table. It's true that saying "Be a better DM" is typically less than useful advice, but it's also true that expecting to get great encounters without a lot of experimentation and trial and error and customization is less than reasonable. Encounter building has always been more of an art than a science; the fact that 4E requires a little less art doesn't mean it doesn't require any.
 

Aenghus

Explorer
I don't think the "boom and grind" phenomenon affects all groups equally. I see grind affecting some groups more often than others. A lack of effective strikers, a lack of teamwork, a lack of focused fire all contribute, as well as refusal to take advantage of the synergy bonuses built into 4e, particularly for leaders.

The exact makeup and power selection of the party has a big effect on encounter flow. Some powers are just big damage to one target, others do little damage but have a lot of control. Using the former is hard to get wrong, but with the inflated hp of 4e is less likely to kill a monster outright. Using the latter powers effectively needs more timing and teamwork.

I don't categorically identify minions in most encounters, and use a lot of minions. This discourages immediate alpha strikes. Some powers need a little setup time to be optimal.

I certainly have learned to handwave fights that have been effectively but not actually won, maybe charging a healing surge or three for shortcutting the encounter.

The ideas in this thread are interesting, but the book-keeping issue is a significant one, keeping track of conditions means there is a rainbow of counters on the board in most encounters. There is definitely room for some experimentation here.
 

Well, a question might really be does it require less art or more art? Obviously some other games have wrestled with this and come up with mechanical solutions (like Torg etc). Most common RPGs I've played don't address it at all, but many of them don't really have a set concept of resources controlled by the PCs either or otherwise don't really support the concept of an alpha strike.

Sooo, going back to thinking about AD&D for instance. Drop 4 orcs in a room and you had a working encounter, if not one that was terribly inspiring it did have a certain tension. The level 1 party dealing with this would be in danger of death, yet fully able to unleash and deal with it. The tension is simply inherent in the mechanics of the system. Things are immediately deadly.

Now, this may seem like a low quality of tension to those of us that are playing for years and personally I don't miss it, but for a DM with minimal experience, say some kids starting out their first games, that was most of the fun, the sort of coin toss of survival. A 14 yr old DMing for the first time, or probably for quite a while, isn't going to be working at a high level of theory in encounter design. MAYBE a few of them might read a DMG and really get it. Most are going to benefit from the family sedan kind of performance of good old Basic D&D where most encounters worked at some level. Hand them 4e and it is hit and miss.
 

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