Pathfinder 1E Paizo Announcement and Prognostication

Yes pretty much it was making PUBLISHING mistakes. Things like too much novel backstock, and DUMB art decisions like pasting the CEO's head on Liriel's face on book covers and game covers. There was a period there in the late 90's where the art REALLY sucked, and I do not think because of talent.

TSR made awful decisions. I would have granted XP but I cannot.

I think it was a lot of things and I dont think woc is in the same position, but some of the contributing factors included failing to listen to their customers and bad creative choices. In 94 i was a hardcore fan of 2e and Ravenloft. By 98 you couldn't pay me to read or use the ravenloft material or rule books being produced.
 

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Azgulor

Adventurer
I am lad Paizo did well, but boy do they have a lot of fans who love patting themselves on the back.

I am still waiting to see Paizo design their own game from the ground up. I would be very curious to see what they could do with that.

Yeah, I hear ya. In a related note, I'm still waiting for GM, Chrysler, Honda, and the rest to come up with a transport vehicle built from the ground up instead of relying on four wheels, an internal combustion engine, etc. I mean, where's my consumer hovercar, dammit!

And really, if the new Wii or a future Xbox or PlayStation console isn't fully immersive VR without needing a monitor/TV or controller, I'm going to have to shrug at their complete lack of innovation...


Kidding aside, if people can't look at products like the APG and see that "they're building their own game", then I'm wondering if even if/when they did start from scratch it would satisfy their criteria since it would (presumably) still utlize dice and contain monsters, magic, elves, etc.

Even if I agreed with the assertion that PF is "just" a slightly re-skinned 3.5 and it required no talent or effort to be what it is, I'd give props to Paizo for proving the lie of the idea that "Adventures don't sell". Apparently, the format needed to change slightly (Adventures + support articles in the APs) and be combined with good writing/stories, high production values, etc - but it works.
 
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Ahnehnois

First Post
Kidding aside, if people can't look at products like the APG and see that "they're building their own game", then I'm wondering if even if/when they did start from scratch it would satisfy their criteria since it would (presumably) still utlize dice and contain monsters, magic, elves, etc.

Even if I agreed with the assertion that PF is "just" a slightly re-skinned 3.5 and it required no talent or effort to be what it is, I'd give props to Paizo for proving the lie of the idea that "Adventures don't sell". Apparently, the format needed to change slightly (Adventures + support articles in the APs) and be combined with good writing/stories, high production values, etc - but it works.
I think what people are waiting for is a true revision of the sppine of 3e. Changing the numeric progressions for attacks, saves, and the like. Combining AC and ref saves. Changing the nature of hit points and injury. Changing the magic system. Without trashing the game in the process. There are legitimate flaws in the system that have never been addressed but could be. Trailblazer kind of tried, but there's still work waiting to be done.

That would be hard to do, but 2e was revised successfully into 3e so it can be done.
 

Treebore

First Post
Now hold on there just one minute . . .





You've saying that they will sell stuff as long as people buy stuff. And you're counting that as a successful prediction? :D

Your a business man, you know darn well your whole success is based on how much your consumers buy. They buy enough, success! They don't, going out of business.
 

Treebore

First Post
So you do not want to see what their creativity could do? Fine, but seems like we all could be missing something good.

We see what their creativity can do every month, in many products. From AP's, to stand alone adventures, decks of cards, maps, to full rule books that are better written and better organized than their ancestors were. Which all adds up to a lot of fans doing a lot of "back patting", because it is well deserved.
 

BryonD

Hero
I think it is a related point, in that if WotC were to buy *all* of the games that now can be referenced in that way, their own exposure would go up . . . about how much? DCC, PF, Savage, Fantasy Craft, Arcanis, C&C, GURPS, the numerous retro-clones, and so many others have become, not just alternatives but, replacements to not only the game but the brand. For many it seems that D&D isn't the only "D&D" and for some D&D isn't even "D&D" at all. So, to speak to your larger point, how do the game companies that people gravitate to after getting into the hobby leverage their ever-growing market share into wider exposure?
Perhaps. But they are not going to buy everything. And the point remains that actually *being* Dungeons and Dragons brings a 100fold increase in exposure.

Even the people who don't think 4E is "D&D" know enough about it to have that opinion. That is because it is D&D.

There are great numbers of people who have played D&D but have never heard of Goodman's new game. And yet in 90 seconds of description they could fall into your generalization of loosely considering it "D&D". And yet that wouldn't stop them from never thinking about the game again. And there are also a great many people who are aware of Goodman's game, but won't ever bother to give it a fair shake. It is just one of dozens of "D&Ds" out there and they don't have the time or interest to consider every one. But 99% of those people will investigate 5E. They might all hate it and walk away, but they will seek that one out and decide after they have considered it.
 

Treebore

First Post
Your a business man, you know darn well your whole success is based on how much your consumers buy. They buy enough, success! They don't, going out of business.

@ Mark,

Plus you seem to be totally forgetting my first 3 words quoted, "Uh, very successful,..."

So yeah, my prediction was very spot on. Now I might change it to "incredibly successful" to be even more "spot on", but they say hind sight is 20/20 for a reason.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Perhaps. But they are not going to buy everything.


Of course not. I don't think they're going to buy anything. But I also think you knew that. I was just following your supposition to highlight how much is out there. If Paizo is competing head-to-head or anywhere close to it, then one has to wonder how much of the market is currently held by Paizo, Savage Worlds, Fantasy Craft, GURPS, etc. cumulatively. There was a time, when D&D first came out in the Seventies, that it was one hundred percent of the market. There are many times since when any gamestore owner would tell you that eighty percent or more of their RPG sales were D&D sales. I am sure there were fiscal quarters where that market share dipped in WW's heyday and maybe a few other times. But despite the brand name recognition, we're barely three years into an edition cycle and things are not good, overall market share seems to be as low as ever, and the product pipeline and staff are being gutted to cut losses.

I'm not sure the move away from the FLGS/Distribution/Publisher three tier model has done them much good either. The focus on pre-selling gift boxes online wasn't appreciated by FLGSs. Diverting the revenue stream to DDI is also something FLGSs aren't pleased to see. Encounters is apparently bringing some bodies into the stores but the sales produced as a result doesn't seem to be changing the outlook. Which takes me to my next point.


And the point remains that actually *being* Dungeons and Dragons brings a 100fold increase in exposure.


Name recognition? Yes, probably. Actual exposure, I wouldn't be too sure it's as one-dimensional as you suggest. There are a number of companies every bit as exposed as D&D, and right beside D&D, everywhere there is D&D. That might be part of why the brand has been diluted. I'd agree with your point if D&D were making itself more high profile, through regular television ads and in a lot more places where no other D&D-like product is exposed, but that's simply not the case. Oh, maybe there's an occasional ad push through a video gaming zine and a bit of product placement in television shows, but other companies have done similar things too. For each D&D on Community, there is a Talisman on The Big Bang Theory example, from what I have seen. And, yes, a non-gaming friend who watches TBBT mentioned that he saw the gang playing a D&D boardgame. Is that more exposure for D&D or brand dilution or both or what? So, to continue.


Even the people who don't think 4E is "D&D" know enough about it to have that opinion. That is because it is D&D.


I think you are making a different argument and using circular logic to try and prove a point I'm not necessarily debating. I'm not personally saying D&D isn't D&D. I am however saying that those who don't think of any particular edition as D&D (whether they think of 4E negatively as a minis/video game, or 3E as rules-bloated or too mechanical, or they think of an older edition as over-written or poorly organized) and find a replacement that they believe to be more like the D&D they desire (Pathfinder, Savage Worlds, a retro-clone), they further dilute the brand by calling what they do D&D even when it isn't branded as such. You seem to be conflating brand recognition with brand strength, but if the sales are going elsewhere, then that is a mistaken impression.


There are great numbers of people who have played D&D but have never heard of Goodman's new game. And yet in 90 seconds of description they could fall into your generalization of loosely considering it "D&D". And yet that wouldn't stop them from never thinking about the game again. And there are also a great many people who are aware of Goodman's game, but won't ever bother to give it a fair shake. It is just one of dozens of "D&Ds" out there and they don't have the time or interest to consider every one.


Might be more appropos to discuss a game with a bit of a track record, like PF or Savage Worlds, or something else not as newly released as DCC. It's sort of cherry picking to use them earlier as a "random" example then use them again to reinforce an additional point to an argument.


But 99% of those people will investigate 5E. They might all hate it and walk away, but they will seek that one out and decide after they have considered it.


Bet you could argue that number up to 100% if you decide the larger group in your example only inludes folks who fit into the 100%. :D

Anyway, you're arguing something that isn't really my point, and my point is just a correllated point to your point, so many we've exhausted this tangent.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
@ Mark,

Plus you seem to be totally forgetting my first 3 words quoted, "Uh, very successful,..."

So yeah, my prediction was very spot on. Now I might change it to "incredibly successful" to be even more "spot on", but they say hind sight is 20/20 for a reason.



It's all good, Treebore. I predict that their next product will be very successful if it sells a lot. :)
 

variant

Adventurer
I am lad Paizo did well, but boy do they have a lot of fans who love patting themselves on the back.

I am still waiting to see Paizo design their own game from the ground up. I would be very curious to see what they could do with that.

Except there isn't a single reason to do it. There are hundreds of alternative systems. I would rather see improvement on the d20 system than simply throwing it out and working to design a whole new one. I mean, how many different ways can you determine whether you are successful in a game?
 

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