How a ****ing cantrip exterminates an entire school of magic. NO MORE OF THAT!

[Jimlock]

I have one thing to say to this. If D&D (3e anyway) isn't intended to be a combat-oriented game then why does such a large proportion of the rules deal with combat? Virtually everything in the game is directed towards the eventuality of beating monsters and taking their stuff.

Easy answer: Because combat is the most complicated aspect of the game. Combat needs plenty of rules to be resolved properly, whereas almost every other aspect of the game is not so rules-dependant.

White Wolf, who beats both TSR and WotC 10 times out of 10 on all aspects of ROLE-playing, has combat rules as well, and it tends to be the most big and complicated chapter of their books. This does not make WOD games combat-oriented, far from it actually. I would suggest you try some of their games, cause they really are great, but seeing how you value combat over everything else I guess you wouldn't like it.

And yes, there is no wrong way to play the game as long as you are having fun, but I feel its a waste of a perfectly good combat system if all you want to do is sit around and practice your extemporaneous acting skills. Again, nothing wrong with sitting around roleplaying and never picking up dice. But you don't need a rulebook to do that.

You feel what? A waste of a combat system?

So what you are saying is that people have (only ?) two options:

1)They roleplay without rules and dice
2)They gather around for hack-n-slash sessions only, under the blessings of a "perfectly good combat system".

Well don't be surprised to find out that GREAT combat CAN be combined with GREAT roleplaying. You use the system/dice/rules when you need it to resolve the "drama"...while you roleplay everything else.
...Hell you can even roleplay during combat, even while using the combat-rules, as long you know them well enough so that they don't slow down your game.



Oh... and so as to be clear on one thing:

D&D isn't about combat, D&D is about adventure. Combat is a part of the adventure but not all of it.

I read the thread. I got pretty tired of seeing overgeneralizations about the school of illusion and wanted to set the record straight.

Did it ever occur to you, while reading through the thread, that these "overgeneralizations" as you call them, revolve around non-combat situations in the game? ...and that because of their (off-combat) focus do not "appeal" to your style of play... and thus you reject them as "overgeneralizations".

Permit me to make these assumptions, because the people who are SO against the idea that Detect Magic is broken in respect to Illusions, are people who (from what I make of them anyway...based on their words in this Forum) probably share your opinion of the game as being a combat game, optimizers included.

I have no intention of being judgmental on how people play the game. Surely you play what you like, the way you like it. No problem with that.
...But when it comes down to putting rules to the test... one has to be able to judge things from different perspectives, not simply through the lenses of his own game-style.

To be more precise, despite the fact that I brought fourth all those Illusion spells from post 1, explaining how various Illusions CAN be broken by detect magic in off-combat situations...

... a surprisingly big number of posters kept going back to that accursed "3 round process" claiming it as the reason DM is NOT broken. It was enervating really...

"but in order to... you need three rounds....", "it's stupid to lose 3 rounds....", "wasting 3 rounds so as to..."

Why? because those 3 rounds... are indeed a big problem ... IN COMBAT...

So people filtered my question through their own gaming experience, and rightly so, but those SO focused on combat, fail to see the importance of the rest....
calling it either as "fluff"... or as "situationalisms" or as "overgeneralizations"...

but the point remains... that Illusions can find 100s of uses outside of combat, and those are the ones I'm more worried about.
...no ONLY about how difficult it is to see an invisible person in combat with DM..

Illusions are a means to an end just like any school of magic. They serve to help you navigate the dungeon, beat the dragon, and take his stuff. A few might be a little more in the fluff area (like disguise self), but they are in the clear minority.

What can I say... we use the same books but we play different games.

 

[Greenfield]

I have an idea.

Let's start a new thread that specifically addresses ways to "fix" the relationship between Detect Magic and the Illusion spells.

Y'know, just for the novelty of being on topic.

 

[Crothian]

White Wolf, who beats both TSR and WotC 10 times out of 10 on all aspects of ROLE-playing, has combat rules as well, and it tends to be the most big and complicated chapter of their books. This does not make WOD games combat-oriented, far from it actually.

Now that is funny. That's the cool aid that White Wolf of the 90's wants everyone to think. It is not to say that there are no people that play White Wolf games emphasizing the role playing aspects of the game just like there are D&D groups that do that. But there was also plenty of people that played WW games like dark superhero games. Vampires and Werewolves had the power and they would min max those characters so badly to own combat. Once the different kinds of werewolves and vampires came out I'd see all kinds of games at cons that was just combat.

The writers of WW wanted it to be some big role playing and emotional experience but when the fans got a hold of the books they did what they wanted. I've heard a lot of WW writers complain about people playing their game wrong. When they used to come to Origins it was always entertaining to hear these guys talk about the fans of their games.

 

[airwalkrr]

Jimlock, I rather like you (at least what I've seen of you on these boards), but you are taking this way too seriously and personally. So back off and cool down first of all.

Second of all, if you don't think D&D is a combat-oriented game you don't have a very good grasp of the history of the game or the objectives of its designers past and present. That is all I am going to say on that since it is way off-topic for this thread.

Finally, how you choose to play the game is up to you. I could sit back and pretend I'm puffing a cigar, drinking gin and tonic, wearing a fancy suit and a rolex and talk like a 1920s investment broker while I play Monopoly, but that doesn't change the fact that the rules of Monopoly govern the movement of pieces around a board and fake monetary transactions between players. What the rules are designed to do and how one plays the game are completely different things. But if you and your group decides that you don't like the fact that there is a Chance card that says Advance to Boardwalk in the game, you are free to throw it out. You won't be playing Monopoly exactly according to the rules, but you'll be having a good time. I think you already have your answer on how to deal with detect magic.

But take it down a notch, okay? Ease up on the hyperbole and maybe you'll get some more reasoned discussion. As it is, I think you've let this thread become enough of a flame war.

I have an idea.

Let's start a new thread that specifically addresses ways to "fix" the relationship between Detect Magic and the Illusion spells.

Y'know, just for the novelty of being on topic.

A brilliant suggestion. And let's avoid thread titles with statements in all caps, exclamation points, and censored profanity.

 

[Tovec]

I have yet to hear anyone say that my house rule would be a disaster for the game, or even in any way a bad thing (although I have seen one person come up with a more complicated alternative that they like, but which I see as roughly a mirror image of "DM doesn't work on illusions unless you make a DC will save vs. the spell). I have heard people say it is a good thing.

I'm not sure of exactly which rule of which you speak but I like to prove people wrong.

*Tovec yells* Your rule would be a disaster.

You said you had to hear it. I think it is a disaster because I can see no reason why illusion spells should be special. If one school suddenly bypassed DM then others would come on here saying "why is illusion so special, shouldn't transmutations be included too" and so on.

If you dislike the interaction of DM or any [detect] spell then outlaw it from your game.

So I think, if my house rule is seen by some as a good thing, and others as a neutral thing, and by no one as a bad thing, that this would solve the problem for those that see it as a problem. Like, if some d20 game game out with my house rule, would people complain about the now-godlike power of illusionists? So far, I haven't heard this.

Want godlike power for illusionists?

Gnome
Shadowcraft Mage - Races of Stone
Heighten Spell
Earth Spell
Signature Spell - FR campaign setting
-Spell Mastery as prereq
Arcane Disciple
-luck domain, miracle

I don't have the time to explain what all that does but it ends up with a 130%/65% effect when it comes to saves. Also an extended duration or effect if I remember correctly. It has been a while since I've seen it in play.

(Please note this is not my build, it is a friends I'm sorry if it is incomplete. I'll fix it/explain it later if need be.)

Permit me to make these assumptions, because the people who are SO against the idea that Detect Magic is broken in respect to Illusions, are people who (from what I make of them anyway...based on their words in this Forum) probably share your opinion of the game as being a combat game, optimizers included.

You know what they say, when you make assumptions you make an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'mptions'.

Maybe you aren't counting me because I'm not SO against DM being broken. I am against it however. I am certainly not in the game for the combat nor an optimizer. I do see issue when a spell is suddenly defeated by a school of magic (if DM doesn't work against illusions).

... a surprisingly big number of posters kept going back to that accursed "3 round process" claiming it as the reason DM is NOT broken. It was enervating really...

"but in order to... you need three rounds....", "it's stupid to lose 3 rounds....", "wasting 3 rounds so as to..."

Why? because those 3 rounds... are indeed a big problem ... IN COMBAT...

Maybe the IN COMBAT part is important because a vast majority of rules deal with combat, as opposed to conversations.
Maybe three rounds matter when you are in a time-crunch or that you have to spend 3 consecutive rounds focusing on one thing.
Maybe it is because, as many on my side of the fence say, you only cast DM against illusions when there is a reason to believe them to be fake.

ps. I am ignoring Warlocks because I do consider Warlocks to be broken in their own right. Everyone else has limited uses of the spell or must concentrate to persist the spell more than 1 round at a time. Meaning the average person doesn't walk around with it constantly active but instead uses it when they need to instead.

 

[Dandu]

I'm not sure of exactly which rule of which you speak but I like to prove people wrong.

*Tovec yells* Your rule would be a disaster.

How can he hear something that is typed out on a forum?

 

[domino]

You put your ear very close to the monitor.

 

[Shadow_Tickle]

Just because you provided two harmless examples, this does not mean that this stands for every case. In my experience, it is quite the opposite.

The detection of an Illusion could make the difference between the life and death of character, and can be decisive for even bigger things as well.

Think of espionage, think of hiding inside an illusion so as evade a stronger opponent... honestly... examples where the exposure of illusion magic can prove fatal and destructive are endless, and it all depends on what ends and means the magic was initially used for.

I was going for more RP-heavy and less potential combat examples but certainly detecting illusion magic on a letter (Espionage) you have been given is a potential problem, you might expose a cunning forgery or you might disable a magical version of a singing telegram. Your going to have to explain more on the hiding inside an illusion thing as I was going for non-combat examples. If you mean invisibility then don't stand still for so many rounds or just be prepered to vamoose out of sight once a caster begins shaking his/her arms about as a just in case.

Honestly, can't you see the difference between walking + looking around (detect magic), AND searching (skill), touching surfaces, throwing pebbles etc etc...?

*Shrug* Not really that different once time considerations have been removed, "Hey Charlie, go back to the village at the base of the castle and get a couple of guinea-pigs/goats/sacrificial animals would ya? The last animal just bought it when we sent him down those illusionary stairs."

Another way is to buy a trained animal or even a magical with good senses and bring him along. The dog will detect air passing through the illusionary wall and go right on through.

False analogy. There is often time for a Warlock to spend one round using DM as a spell-like ability. If no magic is detect, the other 2 rounds don't need to be spent. If magic is detected, it is worth-while to spend 2 rounds to discover what type of magic. If illusion is detected as such, then the illusion is usually much easier to defeat.

Not if your a clever bugger and place illusions over real items (Walls over walls seems to be a popular example.) To be honest though I have only had one or two games with Warlocks.

 

[Particle_Man]

Not if your a clever bugger and place illusions over real items (Walls over walls seems to be a popular example.)

This sort of thing works a lot better with the NPC illusionist that has a lot of time to boobyt-rap his lair, but not so well for the PC illusionist that moves around with an adventuring party.

 

[Particle_Man]

I think it is a disaster because I can see no reason why illusion spells should be special. If one school suddenly bypassed DM then others would come on here saying "why is illusion so special, shouldn't transmutations be included too" and so on.

The DM would presumably reply "if a Detect Magic registers transmutation, the party still has work to do. If a Detect Magic registers illusion, a lot of time the jig is up for the illusion having any chance of working. Since I want illusions to have at least a chance of working, I will not allow a 0 level cantrip to detect them. You will have to put a little more effort into it."

Note that DMs put in all kinds of house rules. The question is not really "will the players see this as unfair" but more "will the players see illusions as now so powerful now that the entire party will be filled with illusionist wizards and illusion-loving sorcerers?" The latter would, in my opinion, be a problem. The former not so much. With my party, I have done a lot more restrictive house rules and doubt I would get grief over a perceived unfairness with this one.

Want godlike power for illusionists?

Gnome
Shadowcraft Mage - Races of Stone
Heighten Spell
Earth Spell
Signature Spell - FR campaign setting
-Spell Mastery as prereq
Arcane Disciple
-luck domain, miracle

I and my players agree not to use builds from the Character Optimization boards, and I remember that there was a gnome very like this on those boards. The question is not whether one can get an illusionist equivalent of Pun-Pun if one tries hard enough. The question is whether the average illusionist now gets so much more powerful than, say, the average enchanter, the average conjurer, etc., as a result of the nerf to detect magic, that no other arcane spell-caster is considered, or (worse) no other character class is considered, as worthy of playing at all.

ps. I am ignoring Warlocks because I do consider Warlocks to be broken in their own right. Everyone else has limited uses of the spell or must concentrate to persist the spell more than 1 round at a time. Meaning the average person doesn't walk around with it constantly active but instead uses it when they need to instead.

Ah, then it would be *you* that would really hate Pathfinder, since the 0-level spell Detect Magic becomes available at will to all the character classes that chose that cantrip/orison.

Incidentally, the Warlock, like the Mystic Theurge before him, really doesn't live up to the "OMG it is over-powered!" hype, by general consensus (again, check the CO boards). A high-level Wizard will laugh at the high-level Warlock. The Detect Magic at will is a good trick (hence this thread) but unless the game runs into way more than 4 encounters a day, the warlock will be behind the curve pretty soon. Warlocks are more like a sorta magical archer.

p.p.s. I am leaning towards the DM instead of registering "nothing" registering "caster's choice of nothing or an appropriate school (like shadow conjuration registering as conjuration)