How a ****ing cantrip exterminates an entire school of magic. NO MORE OF THAT!

[Tovec]

The DM would presumably reply "if a Detect Magic registers transmutation, the party still has work to do. If a Detect Magic registers illusion, a lot of time the jig is up for the illusion having any chance of working. Since I want illusions to have at least a chance of working, I will not allow a 0 level cantrip to detect them. You will have to put a little more effort into it."

Note that DMs put in all kinds of house rules. The question is not really "will the players see this as unfair" but more "will the players see illusions as now so powerful now that the entire party will be filled with illusionist wizards and illusion-loving sorcerers?" The latter would, in my opinion, be a problem. The former not so much. With my party, I have done a lot more restrictive house rules and doubt I would get grief over a perceived unfairness with this one.

The reason I say "why isnt transmutation" is because simply having illusions not register as illusions is a trait that no other school gets. Especially when many schools (or spells within them) don't have long durations and yet DM can still find (sometimes lingering) auras associated with them.

It is a 0 level spell that purposely ONLY gives you the ability to tell the difference between a spell being an illusion and it being conjuration (for example). The spell doesn't give a bonus, nor a free save, nor an automatic save against the school anymore than knowing the spell type that wizard is throwing at you is evocation and getting a bonus to your reflex save against fireball.

I and my players agree not to use builds from the Character Optimization boards, and I remember that there was a gnome very like this on those boards. The question is not whether one can get an illusionist equivalent of Pun-Pun if one tries hard enough. The question is whether the average illusionist now gets so much more powerful than, say, the average enchanter, the average conjurer, etc., as a result of the nerf to detect magic, that no other arcane spell-caster is considered, or (worse) no other character class is considered, as worthy of playing at all.

I continually forget how badly sarcasm or tone in general comes off on forums. I was merely pointing out that illusionists can be VERY effective. What I gave you wasn't from the CharOps boards though it likely belonged there. It was a build a friend of mine used IN GAME and part of my lack of sympathy for illusionists.

The same "friend" ruined psionics, warblades and warlocks for me too.

Ah, then it would be *you* that would really hate Pathfinder, since the 0-level spell Detect Magic becomes available at will to all the character classes that chose that cantrip/orison.

It seems I remember you making this allegation before and then (as now) the person said, "actually I love Pathfinder". I find it to be an excellent game, well tested and well balanced.

In pathfinder, casters seem to have something better to do with their time than constantly casting DM. They don't walk around town DM everything, they don't use it when first journeying into a dungeon, they don't have time to use it in combat. In fact they only ever seem to use it when identifying something when there is a reason to or when they need to figure out if an object (equipment) is magical when it comes to loot. At all other times they have something better to do.

Incidentally, the Warlock, like the Mystic Theurge before him, really doesn't live up to the "OMG it is over-powered!" hype, by general consensus (again, check the CO boards). A high-level Wizard will laugh at the high-level Warlock. The Detect Magic at will is a good trick (hence this thread) but unless the game runs into way more than 4 encounters a day, the warlock will be behind the curve pretty soon. Warlocks are more like a sorta magical archer.

I've played a MT and yes he was lacking at the first few levels but only because he lost so much in multiclassing. When I played one at higher levels, about 15 until epic 21/22, he was amazing because he was a double caster. When MT is used in gestalting they are/should be outright banned.

When it comes to warlocks, they are very useful because of the amount of things they can just keep doing throughout a dungeon crawl or that they can UMD very effectively when in an urban setting. Both of these traits are only really useful at lower levels when their power isn't stacked against the wizard using Wish.

Mind you, as I have repeatedly said, at higher levels wizards have many other spells that leave DM in the dust including true sight, arcane sight, see invisibility and permanency which make DM (and this issue) irrelevant. So perhaps your point was lost on me.

p.p.s. I am leaning towards the DM instead of registering "nothing" registering "caster's choice of nothing or an appropriate school (like shadow conjuration registering as conjuration)

This was one of my suggestions a while ago but it only works if you re-examine the entire school of magic and fix it as a whole, DM has very little effect if the school was better.

Let's start with: "The Con"

A nice old image spell with sound and all, so at least 2nd level, of the Mayor, Captain of the Guard, Merchant's son, etc., asking for the mook to give the keys to the city, merchant's goods, etc. to the illusion's "friend" (who is real) or to let another PC out of jail, there has been a misunderstanding, etc.

Sometimes that may work, if you don't give someone a reason to cast any spell at all. But if there is any reason to be suspicious (captain of the guard releasing a prisoner we captured?) then if there is a 1st level wizard npc with the guards, the jig is up.

Most everything I was going to say has been already talked about already. I just wanted to add...

The 1st level mage must have better duties than spend one of his three, ten minute maximum, concentration spells for no reason. If there is a reason then by all means. If the illusionist is defeated this will be the least of the reasons. Poor bluff check, poor excuse/lie, poor illusory double (wrong details), unfortunately bumping into someone, lack of proper information, uncooperative guards, guard captain, or even prisoner are ALL more likely to foil the illusionist than the off chance a 1st level wizard will happen to spend 3 rounds staring at the illusion and then making the spellcraft check to tell there is AN (which?) illusion at work for no reason.

 

[Dandu]

Not fingerprints in medieval fantasy, surely.

Surely.

And I have seen cop shows where the sheriff says "let him go" and the cops just let a guy go, no paperwork needed. Presumably this could also work in a fantasy medieval game.

Do you expect security to be lax enough to just let someone go on a person's word, but still strong enough to sweep them with Detect Magic?

 

[Particle_Man]

I think there is a slight disconnect between "fantasy medieval like in movies like the Princess Bride and book like Guards!Guards!" and "realistic medieval". I don't expect guards in medieval times to look for fingerprints, even if they really did. I expect more of a Terry Pratchett view of "we can't find any clues here, someone got their dirty fingers on it and left marks all over it" kind of medieval fantasy. So in fantasy D&D I do expect a detect magic to come up -- I don't expect an "excuse me, do you have fingerprints?" But that just means that our games differ, so fair enough.

 

[Dandu]

And as for requesting a signature when asking for a prisoner to be released?

The point I'm trying to make here is that if your illusion arouses suspicion, you're screwed, Detect Magic nerf or no. There are too many entirely reasonable things a suspicious person could do (or even a non-suspicious person who works in a place with strictly enforced rules regarding prisoner release) that would blow the con, hence I do not believe your example is a good one.

Feel free to come up with another in its place.