Red Box discontinued......Smart Move?

[Peraion Graufalke]

If I recall correctly (don't have a link handy, sorry), Wizards had new art ready for the Essentials starter box, but they wanted to appeal to older gamers first for the nostalgia factor, so they used the old Elmore art to start out with; but they always had plans to release a settled version of the product with the new art they had ordered on the cover whenever the Elmore-covered product sold out.

Yup. There was a limited print run with the Elmore cover first, and subsequent printings were to use the same cover art as the Rules Compendium.

 

[DracoSuave]

More importantly... outside of Basic D&D, was there ever once, in the history of D&D, a successful 'beginner' box?

 

[Pour]

I'm inclined to think it's a smart move. As mentioned above, it's not really a gateway product so much as a small preview, and a preview that isn't 100% compatible with the latest rules.

Honestly, I think the current 'beginner boxes' are the ones given to Encounters DMs every season. A weekly, accessible game that welcomes new players and ties into both classic modules and the latest book releases (and comes with its own DM to model play for you!) is the ideal beginner experience. The only bummer is that these kits aren't purchasable when the season is over. I could see a fair number of new or inexperienced gamers, when Encounters was done, wanting to bring it home and run it themselves. And of course there would be added sales from all those clamoring for Encounters releasing to the public. It kind of solves the product meant for beginners and veterans.

 

[TirionAnthion]

Red Box Discontinued

As a retailer, I am no longer able to order the Red Box from Wizards. They have not explained why, only that the product is currently "Out of Stock" and they do not know when it will be available again.

I am hoping that they release a revised Red Box. The new Pathfinder Beginner Box is an excellent product and I would like to have something similar for my D&D players.

 

[Fox Lee]

Smart move. I think the Red Box was a bad introduction to the game, as it presented an old-fashioned cheesy retro image for the game that might well have turned off potential new players (think like somebody whose idea of fantasy is the LotR movies, Harry Potter, recent video games, and all that jazz).

The red box presentation is all about nostalgia, so I always felt it was a poor choice for an "introductory" product - unless its primary purpose was to win back old players who left before/because of 3e.

 

[S'mon]

More importantly... outside of Basic D&D, was there ever once, in the history of D&D, a successful 'beginner' box?

The lesson there of course is to use the Moldvay & Mentzer Basic sets as your model for future beginner boxes! Paizo realised that. I really hope WotC finally will too. I really cannot understand why they have been so resistant to the idea of an intro set that gives an extended game experience, enough to get players and DMs really hooked on the game.

Edit: Currently whenever there's a thread eg on rpgnet where someone asks "What should I buy to get started with D&D?" there's a lengthy debate, maybe a dozen different products are discussed, most people say don't bother with the Red Box, get X Y & Z (&/or A B & C) etc etc. This is just silly. There should be a clear intro point, as Paizo has now made for their game.

 

[wedgeski]

Edit: Currently whenever there's a thread eg on rpgnet where someone asks "What should I buy to get started with D&D?" there's a lengthy debate, maybe a dozen different products are discussed, most people say don't bother with the Red Box, get X Y & Z (&/or A B & C) etc etc. This is just silly. There should be a clear intro point, as Paizo has now made for their game.

True, but Paizo doesn't have thirty years of gamer baggage to contend with.

Can someone fill me in on why Paizo's new product is considered so much better than the Red Box?

 

[Walking Dad]

Hopefully they've now seen how Paizo got it right, realised they screwed up again, and will now do a proper Red Box with 5 full levels of play for Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue that blatantly copies the Pathfinder version.
...

But the Pathfinder box simplified the rules by ignoring AoOs and Combat Maneuvers. I don't really like this approach.

I think a new Red Box based on the less option filled essential-like classes could be successful. The warpriest and mage are still to option heavy for a beginners box. I would really like to see a arcane controller and a divine leader as simple as the knight and thief.

 

[delericho]

Apparently the beginner Red Box has been discontinued. I've heard it wasn't that great anyway but would getting rid of the introduction to the game really be a smart move?

I know Pathfinder has their beginner box that came out not to long ago and it's really nice.

What do you think?

Firstly, I will have to echo other requests for confirmation of this. Has it truly been discontinued, or is it just currently unavailable?

However, assuming it has been discontinued:

Cancelling the Red Box is a good move. Cancelling the only Introductory Set for the game is a really bad move.

The key thing to consider is: what is the entry point for the game. Assuming a new player, with no prior expertise, and nobody around to show him the ropes: what should he do?

At present, the answer is: Get the "DM's Kit", the "Monster Vault" and one of the "Heroes of..." books (and, worse, there are four "Heroes of..." books, but only two of them are valid choices). How does the new player decide which to get? Well, it depends: does he prefer this set of four classes he doesn't know anything about, or that set of four classes he doesn't know anything about?

Anyway, assuming the player manages to settle on the right combination of books, he needs to put down $90 (ish) for these books. Then he needs to read them, create an adventure (or buy one, at additional expense), get some friends together, they need to understand the rules enough to create characters (more reading, unless the DM creates the characters for them). And then they get to start having fun.

And all of that for a game that they might like.

Hell, put like that, I would rather play WoW, and I avoid MMOs like the plague!

(4e Classic was much the same, but did at least have the advantage that the new player didn't need to make a choice before knowing anything about the game!)

If D&D is ever going to grow significantly, it needs a good starter set. There needs to be a single, clear and accessible way into the game. And it needs to be available even if it doesn't sell well in and of itself. Otherwise, you are relying on existing players expanding the network - and we're not, by and large, a group noted for our social skills!

IMO, the Red Box was not a good product. But even the Red Box is a hell of a lot better than 'nothing'.

 

[delericho]

But the Pathfinder box simplified the rules by ignoring AoOs and Combat Maneuvers. I don't really like this approach.

That was unfortunate. My preference would definitely be to have the Beginner Set use as close to the 'real' rules as possible. I suspect this was considered a necessary compromise.

Hopefully, a good 4e Beginner Set would sidestep this almost entirely - the complexity in the combat system seems to be mostly tied in with the individual powers, so by providing a limited set of options you cut out that complexity without needing to compromise the actual rules.

However, the strength of the PF set is not actually the rules used (or cut), but rather the other contents. I think a good 4e Beginner Set needs to include:

- A decent level range. 1-2 is way too short. 1-3 is better, but probably still too short. They should aim for 1-5.

- Character creation, and not (or at least not only) as part of the game. That's an interesting gimmick... but liable to get really old really fast.

- A smallish set of character options. Four races and four classes is probably best, being the classic set of Human, Elf, Dwarf and Halfling; and Fighter, Wizard, Rogue and Cleric. (Incidentally, those names should probably be fixed.)

- Good secondary components that will continue to be reused after the players graduate to the 'real' game. The Red Box is actually fine in this regard. The Pathfinder box is likewise strong. (I won't venture to comment on which is better!) Even the very first 3e set wasn't too shabby - it was almost worth the nominal price for the tokens alone.

It does seem harsh to simply say that the Pathfinder Beginner Box is the model that should be used, not least since that box was heavily inspired by earlier D&D sets. However, the Pathfinder box is the closest we've had to a good beginner set for decades - WotC could do a lot worse than to copy it.