Red Box discontinued......Smart Move?

[delericho]

Well, that's something at least. Probably the third best option...

(The best would be to re-do the Red Box (again) to be a better product. The second best is a mild revision of Red Box to fix the niggling incompatibilities and incorporate errata. The third is "nothing to see here". And the worst, of course, is simply to discontinue it.)

 

[Fox Lee]

Apart from the Shadar-Kai that fits my experience. I know one female player who played a Dwarf, another likes to play Revenants, some male players like Goliath and one played a Dwarf, but left to their own devices the most popular PC races are Half-Elf Human & Elf (inc Drow), in that order. Nearly all the Half-Elves are female, mind you, whether player is female or male.

*nods* My group tends toward sausage-fest ^_^; I'm now the only female, and whilst I really enjoy male characters (my ratio is roughly half-and-half) and the guys are generally uncomfortable playing females. I"m the only one who has played a goliath so far, and I absolutely loved her, even though she was my first 4e character and quite poorly built ^_^;

That said, while I'd be disinterested in dwarves and halflings in an intro set, I can't deny that they are probably the races that ought to be present. More than anything, I would expect the "mainstream" vision of fantasy to include the elf/dwarf/halfling trilogy, and if I were to ditch one it would be the halfling (because I reckon most people would rather play Legolas and Gimli than Merry and Pippin - just a guess). As much as I don't care for the short-and-stubby races, they do probably belong in an introductory box IMO.

 

[M.L. Martin]

I don't know about 'marketed', but my brother had that set, and tucked away in the bottom was a "what's next" flyer - pointing him at the 2nd Edition AD&D PHB and DMG.

Edit: it is, of course, possible that he got his set just after the RC was discontinued, but before the Black Box itself was replaced.

Entirely possible--there was a window between the closing out of the D&D line at the end of 1993 and the relaunch of the Black Box in the Smaller Tan Box in June or so of 1994, and given strong sales, TSR probably didn't just shut down BB sales for those six months. Indeed, I just acquired another copy of DRAGON #201 today (January 1994), and there's an ad for the Black Box on the back cover.

Anyone have any positive memories of First Quest/Introduction to AD&D? Because it's starting to sound like the problem with introductory sets is that somehow, WotC isn't very good at them, which is odd considering their ability to make Magic and Pokemon massive successes.

 

[Walking Dad]

Eh, I think Paizo definitely made the right call here. Remember this is a set to bring beginners into the game and I think one serious problem both WotC and Paizo face are the amount of rules involved in teaching the game to new players.

I would have preferred an easier method to the combat maneuvers than just ignoring them...

Many would say, and I would agree, that the most important thing is to get them playing and then (just like boardgame expansions) increase complexity and options as they become more familiar and comfortable with the game. Paizo seems to have taken an approach I actually think was a good one as I have seen first hand how AoO can cause alot of confusion with new players of the game...

I like the AoO less rules in Cthulhu d20. Just taking them out, but leaving the 5ft step which has now no function is not so good.

On a secondary note the boxed set also provides a rules-lighter version of Pathfinder for those who desire it and serves as an example of how one can customize the level of complexxity in a d20/3.x based game... so I'm going to say good call on Paizo's part.

Same as above.

The other side is that they are trivially easy for someone who is experienced, like yourself, to add them in if they want.

I wanted to add the rules-light solution to my Pathfinder game...

I don't think the failure of the red box has anything to do with how option heavy the included classes were... frankly, and IMO, WotC made an inferior product (numerous errors in compatibility) with little replay value, a low-level limit and not enough bang for the buck when it came to components and usability.

The compatibility issues were one of the reasons I suggested more essential classes. With less option/level, it would have been easier to support higher level play (less powers which take room in the print product).

WotC needs to come up with a better all around product than they have for 4e starters so far. Instead of trying to sell a badly edited promo for the game... actually sell an introductory game. Ultimately it has to be a product people feel is worth the money they are spending on it and I think the red box (even amongst 4e fans) missed the mark big time.

This is sadly true...

 

[delericho]

I would have preferred an easier method to the combat maneuvers than just ignoring them...

The problem with doing that is that you're teaching the wrong rules to people. This means that when they graduate to the 'real' rules they need to unlearn and then relearn the rules. In general, it's much better to simply stay away from the most complex areas, teach the basics, and then expand the player's knowledge, rather than contradicting it.

I like the AoO less rules in Cthulhu d20. Just taking them out, but leaving the 5ft step which has now no function is not so good.

It still has a function: allowing a minor tactical adjustment as a free action. This is a key difference between 4e and PF, actually - the 5 foot step does have other uses than simply avoiding AoOs.

 

[Imaro]

I would have preferred an easier method to the combat maneuvers than just ignoring them...


I like the AoO less rules in Cthulhu d20. Just taking them out, but leaving the 5ft step which has now no function is not so good.


Same as above.

Well I have to say as someone with a 11 year old son and 10 year old nephew to introduce to the game... I'm glad Paizo didn't tailor this set to your preferences... since, as I stated before, you aren't a beginner and aren't approaching it from the mindset of a new player.

On another note, as delericho stated... the 5ft step does serve a purpose on a tactical choice level.

Finally if you like the AoO rules from d20 Cthulhu... then just add them to the Beginner Box, it seems like it would be trivially easy and leans more towards your tastes, however I don't think including wrong AoO (as delericho pointed out) would do anything but confuse players.

I wanted to add the rules-light solution to my Pathfinder game...

I'm not even sure what this means... you wanted to add rules-light rules to the Pathfinder corebook rules? I would think that if you wanted a more rules-light game that you would start with the BB rules as a basis and add the rules from the core that you want... In fact this is very much what is being suggested on the Paizo boards, that people add in as much or as little as they want from the corebook when their players are ready for increased complexity.

The compatibility issues were one of the reasons I suggested more essential classes. With less option/level, it would have been easier to support higher level play (less powers which take room in the print product).

One issue...compatibility, has nothing to do with supporting a higher level of play. The classes in the red box were suppose to be essential classes, they just weren't, in certain aspects, the same as the essential classes they released in the "Hereos of" books.

This is sadly true...

I would further add it goes beyond just the initial product. Right now Paizo has released 2 PDF's with a barbarian BB class, new monsters, another adventure, more magic items, etc. for free. They released the hero minis for those who want to purchase them and finally to top it off they announced there will be a free character creator relelased by HeroLab for the Beginner Box. To me that's the type of push and support WotC should be issuing for their own red box.

 

[Netherstorm]

The Red Box had a nice price, but didn't seem too effective. The Pathfinder box is more expensive, but man it is really great. The flip mat and the stand-up counters are fantastic.

I get this weird feeling in our post-Essentials environment like we're adrift. Wizards puts out one main book every 2-3 months, and spends the build-up trying to hype it up with encounters and article tie-ins. But if you just have no interest in that book, like Neverwinter, then you're sitting around for four months with no books to buy when you're used to having a book a month you wanted to buy.

Yes there's dungeon and dragon to keep you occupied, but now they're having 'theme' issues like the kara-tur one. So for me, who has no interest in kara-tur or neverwinter, there's not a lot for me to spend my money or time on.

I think wizards could be putting out a lot of cool stuff. I could use an epic handbook very badly. I'd like a new adventure path. I'd like more Vor Rukoth-style books expounding on things like the 4e isle of dread and Kalandurren.

I guess what's strangest is that they put out the Red Box and Essentials line to draw new people in, and then they didn't put out much adventure and source material for those people to buy and use! It makes me wonder if the red box and essentials sold really poorly.

 

[Havrik Stoneskimmer]

I wonder how many people actually come to D&D completely cold, and buy a starter set in a bookstore with no advice from more experienced players.

My experience is that people who are new to 4e (or D&D or even role playing in general) come to the game is that they move in similar social circles as existing players, and eventually get invited to a game or ask to join a game. Then the DM gives them a basic overview and helps them choose a race and class and write up their character. Then they learn as they go, helped along by the DM and other players.

I liked the comment earlier in this thread about Encounters being the de facto starter set these days. That gives new players the kind of easy introduction that I'm talking about.

 

[Imaro]

I wonder how many people actually come to D&D completely cold, and buy a starter set in a bookstore with no advice from more experienced players.

My experience is that people who are new to 4e (or D&D or even role playing in general) come to the game is that they move in similar social circles as existing players, and eventually get invited to a game or ask to join a game. Then the DM gives them a basic overview and helps them choose a race and class and write up their character. Then they learn as they go, helped along by the DM and other players.

I liked the comment earlier in this thread about Encounters being the de facto starter set these days. That gives new players the kind of easy introduction that I'm talking about.

I think what you describe is how players generally enter a game... but I'm not so sure if DM's enter the game in the same way... or if they do, whether they in fact eventually need a product that teaches them to run the game in a less intimidating format. I know that's what I'd be considering the starter sets more in line for... teaching new DM's as opposed to drawing in players... and I have to wonder how effective encounters is at that.

 

[Walking Dad]

...

On another note, as delericho stated... the 5ft step does serve a purpose on a tactical choice level.

Yes, sorry, I forgot this. I usually only use it to leave melee range to cast spells or do a ranged attack or to move at the same round I do a full attack. Both niches are much less needed without AoOs or iterative attacks in the Beginner's Box.

Adding AoOs and Combat Maneuvers would be a great as "Free Beginner's Box Resources" download.

Finally if you like the AoO rules from d20 Cthulhu... then just add them to the Beginner Box, it seems like it would be trivially easy and leans more towards your tastes, however I don't think including wrong AoO (as delericho pointed out) would do anything but confuse players.

Oh, it just don't allow actions in threatened areas (just like the Box does for spellcasting) but adds a rule that you cannot use normal movement to leave an area adjacent to an enemy. Not really more wrong or confusing than the Box rules. Or did I just miss the moving part in it?

I'm not even sure what this means... you wanted to add rules-light rules to the Pathfinder corebook rules? I would think that if you wanted a more rules-light game that you would start with the BB rules as a basis and add the rules from the core that you want... In fact this is very much what is being suggested on the Paizo boards, that people add in as much or as little as they want from the corebook when their players are ready for increased complexity.

What is not to understand? I hoped for a rules-lighter CMB/CMD variant...
I know that isn't required for an introduction box, but this is what I hoped for.

One issue...compatibility, has nothing to do with supporting a higher level of play. The classes in the red box were suppose to be essential classes, they just weren't, in certain aspects, the same as the essential classes they released in the "Hereos of" books.

look at the length of the power section of the 'old' concept 4e classes. Now look at the length of the knight power section. Less length means more room for higher levels in the book.

I would further add it goes beyond just the initial product. Right now Paizo has released 2 PDF's with a barbarian BB class, new monsters, another adventure, more magic items, etc. for free. They released the hero minis for those who want to purchase them and finally to top it off they announced there will be a free character creator relelased by HeroLab for the Beginner Box. To me that's the type of push and support WotC should be issuing for their own red box.

Please don't forget that multiple prebuilt characters, the H1 and one Eberron introduction adventure are free on the D&D website and that at least the off-line character generator was free for building low level characters.
They also released the warlord and other PHB class material for free download for buyers of the essentials books.
But you are right, no minis.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Khybers_Harvest.zip
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/h1.pdf
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/quickstartrules.pdf