The Escapist on D&D Past, Present, and Future

[Erudite Frog]

That's certainly not a ringing endorsement. My experience is that it plays worse than it reads, thanks, in large part, to tracking ever changing conditions, saves, power recharges, and temporary hit points. By the time you hit about 15th level or so, I find it to be a royal pain.

Whats the difference between 15th level and 11th in 4e?? Have you played the game?

 

[Argyle King]

@ Those who feel 4E is a pain to track.

Does the group as a whole keep track of the game or do you expect the GM to do it all? While I do feel 4E has some hidden complexity due to how different one set of mechanics and one class can potentially be from another, I find keeping track of the action to be rather easy. In my regular group, everyone helps.

As a player, if I use a power which gives a boost, bonus, or penalty, I keep track of that. This might mean reminding the guy next to me what my power did when it's his turn. This might mean making a note on my character sheet which reminds me that I get a bonus to using a certain weapon because of a feat. I suppose I always assumed that writing things down on a character sheet was normal.

When I've GMed, I expect a little help from the players if they expect me to remember every fiddly bit about their character. Typically, I'm pretty good at remembering what's going on. As such, I'll try to remind someone if they forget something; if it's a new player, I try to cut them a little slack. However, if you suddenly remember that you should have done 5 extra damage a few rounds ago -sorry, it's too late. I'm not a jerk about it. I simply find that players get more in the habit of paying attention and keeping track of the game if they're expected to. The game is supposed to be a shared experience anyway.

Where I would say 4E has complexity is in what I briefly mentioned earlier in this post. It's possible to play one class and have absolutely no idea how another works. Likewise, it's actually possible to GM 4E without having any idea of how things work on the player side. While this is at times a good thing because it means you only need to know a little bit of how things work to be able to play, I think it can also cause complexity when a situation arises in which a judgement call is needed. I discovered this recently during my Wednesday game when one of the players decided to try an Essentials class. He was unsure how something worked; he asked me, but I had little to no idea.

This also bleeds into the fiddly bits of feats and powers and such. While I just said I find them easy to keep track of, that's assuming they're already on your character sheet. However, I think those things can be complex to understand because of the wide variety of how things can potentially work. I also feel 4E would greatly benefit from a rule which covers in what order exceptions apply. There have been times in which I've had a feat and a class feature conflict with each other over how they modified a power and/or ability. If there were a standard way in which exceptions took precedence, I believe that would clear up a lot of confusion about 4E. It's been a while since I've played Magic, but I remember there being a rule which details in what order different kinds of cards would apply. I believe having a D&D rule which might say powers trump the general rules, but feats trump powers (for an arbitrary example) would be a good thing.

 

[Roland55]

I'm not seeing the slander, but we could have different definitions. I also write for both Paizo and WotC. I love each game for what it is. I also accept that I take heat from both fan-bases when I try to interject logic. Am I not free to question motives?

Yes. You are absolutely free to do that.

After all, that's exactly what the rest of us have been doing!

And best of luck to you.

 

[Mark CMG]

@ Those who feel 4E is a pain to track.

Does the group as a whole keep track of the game or do you expect the GM to do it all? While I do feel 4E has some hidden complexity due to how different one set of mechanics and one class can potentially be from another, I find keeping track of the action to be rather easy. In my regular group, everyone helps.

Anyone with a wargaming background would find 4E has fewer conditions and incidentals to handle than a lot of wargames. I've jumped into higher level games of 4E with pregens and found that as long as the players keep their power cards straight, turning them or turning them over when used up, and keep track of their own conditions, the GM can look after the non-player characters, creatures, and bad guys. I've even played out a few scenarios where we played out battles without a GM, just to try out some powers and see how different classes stacked up against one another in combat. It's pretty straightforward even if complex (lots of conditions and incidentals) at higher levels.

 

[Hussar]

Does anyone actually expect the DM to track everything? It honestly never occurred to me to play this way.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Does anyone actually expect the DM to track everything? It honestly never occurred to me to play this way.

If I didn't track the PCs hit points, sometimes they would "forget" to mark off damage. So, yeah.

 

[Hussar]

If I didn't track the PCs hit points, sometimes they would "forget" to mark off damage. So, yeah.

Good god. Really? Why in hell would you play with someone like that? Bleah. No thank you.

 

[Argyle King]

Anyone with a wargaming background would find 4E has fewer conditions and incidentals to handle than a lot of wargames. I've jumped into higher level games of 4E with pregens and found that as long as the players keep their power cards straight, turning them or turning them over when used up, and keep track of their own conditions, the GM can look after the non-player characters, creatures, and bad guys. I've even played out a few scenarios where we played out battles without a GM, just to try out some powers and see how different classes stacked up against one another in combat. It's pretty straightforward even if complex (lots of conditions and incidentals) at higher levels.

I don't use power cards, but what you mention is in line with my way of thinking. It doesn't seem very difficult to put a check mark on a character sheet or to turn a card sideways or to jot down a note on a scrap piece of paper.

Personally, I probably do more work than most. I usually take a piece of paper and write down my powers and abilities so I don't have to reference books during play. I don't expect others to do that; I've just found that I like having a different layout than what the default character sheet has for keeping track of powers. I've also used cheap index cards from the dollar store.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Good god. Really? Why in hell would you play with someone like that? Bleah. No thank you.

They are my friends.

I saw it as part and parcel in my role of referee. I was also tracking time for movement rate, torch duration, spells, etc. I had it down to a science at one point.

The "forgetting" went away eventually, and some of them even helped track monster damage taken, among other things.

 

[Saracenus]

I don't use power cards, but what you mention is in line with my way of thinking. It doesn't seem very difficult to put a check mark on a character sheet or to turn a card sideways or to jot down a note on a scrap piece of paper.

Personally, I probably do more work than most. I usually take a piece of paper and write down my powers and abilities so I don't have to reference books during play. I don't expect others to do that; I've just found that I like having a different layout than what the default character sheet has for keeping track of powers. I've also used cheap index cards from the dollar store.

Johnny3D3D:

I hate how the character builder loads out the "power card" page on the character sheets so I use https://power2ool.com/ to build each power (if you have DDI like me you can log in and copy it over rather than doing it from scratch), use the toolbox to "print" and then cut and paste the images into MS Word or Publisher to make my powers page.

The nice thing is I can create my own powers, re-skin existing ones, etc. Right now power2ool.com does powers, items, and monsters. Hopefully traps, terrain and other stuff will get added in the near future.

Cheers,