The Escapist on D&D Past, Present, and Future

[Cergorach]

Wow, you have never played or even read 4E rules have you. Your entire post was nothing short of pure edition warring steeped in a lack of knowledge.

4E is an extremely complex game, just at the table vs. prep time. It's more about interactions instead of what once character can do itself.

Never played 4E is true, but I have about 3 feet of 4E books on the shelf, and I did read the core rulebooks because I was going to DM the thing. As I've said before the rules themselves are solid and an improvement over 3.5E, but the presentation is lacking imho. And I've read more attractive/interesting technical manuals then the 4E PHB to be honest.

I would compare 4E and 3.5E with American cities vs. European cities, American cities are very well planned and often have a square grid (blocks), European cities are often more of a mess, because they've been build upon cities that were never planned to be so large. The 4E rules set is a straight thread were all the options plug in to, 3.5E was a thread that went everywhere to accommodate the options.

Complex doesn't necessarily mean good, and a lot of options doesn't necessarily mean complex.

Part of the problem with 4E and 3.5E comes from the insane amount of classes, feats, powers and spells that most DMs allow in their games when a new book is released. I learned with 3.5E at high levels that it would be the last time I would allow that, and I know that 4E suffers from this as well, but it's less of a problem with 4E then it was with 3.5E (or so people who have played keep telling me).

 

[Argyle King]

Complex doesn't necessarily mean good, and a lot of options doesn't necessarily mean complex.

Simple doesn't necessarily mean good either. In a lot of cases it does, but there are also cases when simple comes across as lacking and/or as restraining the user's ability to do more.

...not disagreeing with your post; I just wanted to add something which I feel doesn't get mentioned. I 100% agree that a lot of options doesn't necessarily mean complex. Presentation can go a long way; the first impression is often the lasting impression.

 

[Hussar]

Comparing the automobile industry with the TRPG industry is like comparing Apples with Skyscrapers. Automobiles are a necessity for most, the developing nations (Like China) are primarily why car sales were rising at that rate. But also cars get old and need to be replaced, then newer model cars are more complex (component/electronics) which become more expensive to maintain and break more easily then cars made a couple of decades ago.

You don't 'need' a new RPG because the old one broke down.

However, I do think you're missing my point. Less distributors can easily mean a more mature distribution system. As time goes along, the more successful distributors buy out the less successful ones, while the least successful ones go out of business. After enough time, you're left with a lot fewer distribution companies that, collectively, are still larger than what you started with.

Much like how the car distribution industry matured. Or really, any distribution system evolves. In the early 80's, we had a glut of gaming shops. People who really shouldn't be opening businesses were sinking the money into opening game shops. Distribution companies sprouted up to take advantage of these small stores.

However, many of these small stores had the business sense of concussed badgers and folded when the fad phase of gaming faded in the mid-80's. A few more managed to limp along for the next ten years, gradually dying out as well.

Does this mean that the total number of gamers was continually shrinking? I'm not so sure. A lot of it had to do with very, very poor business sense. The stores with smart owners stayed in business and thrived. And continue to thrive to this day. But, as the stores folded, the distributors had to change as well.

It's called, I believe, consolodation.

The whole thing is interconnected, and it's very difficult, I think, to point to any one thing and say, "Hey, this is what's going on." You have massive changes in the price of printing, changes in distribution model and methods, changes in the market, changes in technology and so on and so forth.

While a shrinking gamer base is possible, we're still not seeing any real evidence that that is true. Even the idea that Pathfinder is stealing 4e consumers isn't really provable. I'm sure that to some extent it's true. But, how many Pathfinder gamers would not have bought anything from WOTC anyway? How many people are spending money on the hobby now because they have products that actually directly cater to their taste instead of vanilla products that didn't specifically target anyone?

 

[Cergorach]

I can only speak about distributors in the Netherlands, we currently have two. One recently went belly up and the team behind that started a new firm doing the same thing. Bergsala Enigma (formerly PS Games) and Boosterbox (a new kid on the block, relatively). I the beginning of 3E and the OGL PS-Games carried WotC, Kenzer, Mongoose, White Wolf (both D20 releases, as WoD and Exalted), Alderac, Fantasy Flight, Green Ronin, etc. Now it's D&D, very little Pathfinder (a few core books), the FFG RPGS for the 40k and WFRP line, L5R was announced but hadn't seen it available, WW doesn't do physical products anymore as far as I can see, I expect to see the Iron Kingdoms RPG (but PP products are poorly available). Availability is often quite poor, not getting titles on time or ever is not unknown these days. Other countries might fare better, we're generally forced to order from the UK (amazon.co.uk doesn't stock any Savage World titles at the moment), Germany or the occasional French webstore (those that carry English products).

So anything that isn't mainstream we usually have to special order, which makes it expensive and thus only interesting when you absolutely want to have it. PDF products on the other hand are instantly downloaded and don't have to contend with enormous shipping fees, taxes, and import fees.

 

[Argyle King]

I'm not allowed to XP Hussar again yet, but a lot of what was said with the most recent post touches on some of what I've been trying to say. The fact that someone runs a business poorly or one of the established industry names fails doesn't prove that customers are no longer there.

 

[delericho]

I'm all for expanding the game beyond its base. That said, I think it has to be done by people, not products. Is it realistic to think that a bunch of novices could pick up some books on *any* form of D&D and start playing cold? That just seems unlikely for a hobby that is inherently involved, complex, and requires a group.

The old Red Box allowed this. That it was the intended entry point when D&D was at its peak of popularity might be a coincidence, of course.

 

[Ahnehnois]

The old Red Box allowed this. That it was the intended entry point when D&D was at its peak of popularity might be a coincidence, of course.

I suppose I'm dating myself; That product far predates my entry into the game (and my birth). Honestly I don't know enough about that era of D&D to say anything about it.

I can only say that I learned the game (in its late 2e incarnation) from others, learned 3.0 together with the group, and have taught others to play, but that I have no experience with the concept of a cold introduction. Based on my experience, that seems like a high bar (and as I've said before, I think the reason for this is more the culture surrounding D&D than the rules of the game itself).

 

[Saracenus]

The economics of a local game store are NOT always about the health of the hobby as a whole.

Here in Portland, OR (a mid-sized city on the West Coast) we have a fair number of game stores.

When I was in High School in the 80's there was a game store downtown called Endgames. It no longer exists because the rents down town could not support that kind of location (and the owners decide not to move).

Bridgetown Hobbies and Games (formerly Military Corner) moved off its two previous locations when the rents got too high (their solution was to buy the building instead of renting).

Rents and location are just small aspect of store survival.

Competitive pressure from Amazon.com and the internet in general (Bridgetown has a huge buffer in this regard because half the store is dedicated to model builders and non-gaming miniatures).

The advent of collectable card and minis games have spawned stores here in town that cater to only that crowd and have only a token RPG shelf space if any at all.

One of the most successful game stores here in Portland is Guardian Games and it also is very young. It has an incredibly large play space that supports all aspects of the hobby (cards, minis, computer/console, rpgs and board games). This diversity is what has kept this store growing when others have withered and died. That and the owner has built the store around the gaming community and fostered it. It has been a nexus for new blood into the hobby and even some cross pollination between gaming groups.

With this all said, the only reason there is a significant D&D representation at this store is advent of the D&D Encounters format. 1-2 hour casual play has been the gateway to a ton of new players and DMs when almost all public D&D play had dried up in this city. The program has spread to almost every game store in Portland. And the beauty of it is, it has spawned countless in-store and at-home spin off campaigns.

You got to be saying to yourself right now, "Great Story Bro! But what does this have to do with the health of the game store and economic pressure?"

Here is the dark secret, D&D Encounters sucks at selling D&D. Essentially you have NO incentive to buy anything beyond some basic books and/or a DDI account but really there is very little you can buy on a weekly basis that would justify the time and space we have been allotted in the store. It is only because the owner wants to support the hobby that we have it.

Angel could make more money with Magic the Gathering, Yugi-Oh, Warhammer, Warmachine, and selling board games than she can make off of us RPGers. Trust me, I have struggled as the organizer of the DDE program at her store to incentivize folks to purchase RPG product. There just isn't much we can so there in the current format that D&D and RPGs are currently produced.

This circle's back to the Ryan Dancey "Model Train Hobby" analogy. Right now there is no incentive to keep purchasing material because of the high price-point (20-40 bucks a shot is hard to maintain), ingrained resistance to "collectable" aspects of gaming (e.g. Fortune Cards), and the time needed to prepare and run a game outside of organized play or pre-published adventures. The people that will continue to play are pretty much already in the hobby and entry points for new players are restricted.

If we continue to define D&D (our segment of the industry) only by what TSR and Gary Gygax pioneered when the hobby was new then we are doomed. The landscape is rapidly changing on how content is delivered.

Think of the music industry and how delivery formats have changed but there is still music. How content is delivered while still being D&D is the really nut we have to crack in order to survive and prosper.

What roll game stores, distributors, and live gaming will play in this is an open question.

I think this has a lot to do with how WotC has been attempting to change how it delivers content and what they do with their IP. 4e products have slowed down, but the quality has gone up. WotC has reclaimed the electronic rights from Activision which should make some the crazy prohibitions on electronic support of the TRPG go away. If they are smart they will reclaim the TV/Movie rights to the D&D IP.

I think you are going to start to see all sorts of experiments by WotC looking for a gateway to new players of D&D. The facebook RPG D&D: Heroes of Neverwinter is just a taste of what's coming. If they can come up with a transition from that kind of casual game to the table-top, pure gold.

I know I have been rambling and my thesis is not very coherent, but the issues of D&D are so much broader than edition wars and play styles. Its hard to wrap my head around what D&D is going to morph into.

That's what I got so far, now I need to rest my poor overtaxed brain.

 

[delericho]

I suppose I'm dating myself; That product far predates my entry into the game (and my birth). Honestly I don't know enough about that era of D&D to say anything about it.

I can only say that I learned the game (in its late 2e incarnation) from others, learned 3.0 together with the group, and have taught others to play, but that I have no experience with the concept of a cold introduction. Based on my experience, that seems like a high bar (and as I've said before, I think the reason for this is more the culture surrounding D&D than the rules of the game itself).

Don't get me wrong, it is by far preferable to be introduced to the game by someone who already plays. If nothing else, that saves you from making a lot of the same mistakes over again.

But good intro sets are a must, and they should be trying to make it as easy to get started as possible.

Something else to consider: On occasion I run games at convention, game days, or whatever. I tend to encounter one or two newbies at these events. They play, they have a good time, and they wonder what's next?

The problem is that I'm not able to help them take that next step. My campaign is full. The other DMs I know have campaigns that are full. And none of us have the time to start up a new campaign. The best we can offer are very occasional one-off games, with the next one being in a few months at least (since I've just run one!).

Programs like Encounters are definitely a good thing, as are the various D&D Gamedays. Unfortunately, the only FLGS I know that runs them is an hour and a half away by car. (There is another closer that advertises them... but as far as I can tell, they actually run 0 tables.)

I expect the Pathfinder Beginner Box to be a godsend in this regard. Hopefully, I'll now be able to run my demo games using that set (only), and then direct the new players over to the nearby stand selling that same box. If it works, that will be awesome.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Off topic, not for you, but for others and adding to what you said for informational enlightenment...

IN MY OPINION...

Gygax was a great person, but he also had his own agenda. I think he REALLY wanted to push Chainmail. I think at the time he felt it was more his then D&D.

With the original rules, I think there were those that used the Chainmail rules in the early groups, but when it spread beyond Gygax's circle many read the rules and really didn't know chainmail all that much. They used alternate rules and it was awesome.

Furthermore, there was a rift at that time. Think of the 3e and 4e bitterness that you sometimes see. It was different, but in some ways similar, and it wasn't between RPG buddies, it was within wargaming in relation to this new D&D thing (actually in many ways it was towards your typical Wargaming and anything dealing with adding fantasy into wargaming...which D&D/chainmail would have been seen to be a part of).

There are some people that I wargame and boardgame with that I STILL don't admit that I've ever touched D&D...some of them are quite bitter against the fantasy stuff.

One of my better (albeit newer) Boardgame/Wargame friends just found out more recently that I "dabble" in RPGs.

Some old folks can be quite crotchety.

And you also had it where those that wargamed despised D&D because not only was it not a "real wargame" as it had fantasy, but it wasn't a Wargame at ALL!!!! The Horror!!! (that last part was sarcasm, just so you know).

By the time Greyhawk was released it was probably obvious what direction D&D was headed. In my opinion Greyhawk solidified what D&D was, is, and has been ever since.

Everyone after that basically used something akin to using a D20 via the rules, or almost everyone, as far as my opinion goes.

In some groups we actually used a variation with D6's many times.......

Oh, gods, yes there was a rift between the wargamers and the RPGers - and those of us who did both were de facto considered to be RPGers. The wargamers closed ranks while the folks playin' that newfangled D'n'D were actively trying to bring more people in. Fantasy wargaming was lumped in with the RPGs.

There was open rebellion at MaineCon in that regard, since the person in charge of the wargames group also ran (and later published) RPGs. He and another referee ran a game of Sturmgeshutz and Sorcery - the fantasy gamers had a blast, the WWII gamers, less so. I was one of the fantasy gamers, but I got my start as an historic wargamer.

The Auld Grump