D&D 5E D&D Next Design Goals (Article)

[P1NBACK]

Well i think in these cases character knowledge is important. If they know about sturges,then yes the idea makes sense. If they see stirges feed they may be able to out two and two together, so the idea makes some sense. If they have encountered them before, it also makes sense. Same with trolls.

This is where I, as a the DM, take responsibility for honestly portraying the world the PCs are interacting with and exploring.

I don't say, "There are stirges! Roll for initiative!" That's ridiculous.

I want to reflect a monster's ecology, abilities and potential weaknesses in their behavior and habitat.

It's the same thing I do with traps. A crushing wall trap? I place descriptors of the grated floor or grooves. A stirge? I place animal remains with obvious drain marks and so on.

The PCs look around and examine things, they are rewarded for interacting with the environment by learning about the world through these sort of descriptions. It's not meta-gaming, because the first-time player has just as much chance of looking around as the old timer. The old timer just knows to ask already, and so the new guy learns to do the same. It's a nice feedback loop.

 

[Incenjucar]

We're talking about stirges. They're not that hard to figure out.

And you were really reaching, with that last comment.

They're easy to figure out after they've killed someone and waddled off, sure.

 

[P1NBACK]

They're easy to figure out after they've killed someone and waddled off, sure.

Thank Gygax for henchmen.

 

[avin]

What spell was that?

Cleric and Hold Person + coup de grace (or just put a nail on Fighter's eye) (just for the sake of example, no Wizard spell in mind ATM).

What is the Wizard doing about that as the Fighter's army is storming his tower?

What army? What tower? You're assuming every edition/campaign works like that?

What happens when the Fighter wins initiative and slays the Wizard in one hit or disrupts his spell every turn?

true only in earlier editions. After that Wizard has ways to avoid that. Not to mention Mirror Image.

What if the Fighter has equally powerful magical swords or items that protect him from magic?

Then the Wizard is dead. But that would depend on the campaign, the world, the DM and sometimes luck.

How did PCs ever defeat evil wizards if it was such a simple calculation?

"Sorry guys, the BBEG in this campaign is a wizard. All you fighters should just re-roll new characters."

It seems that you're talking about the only D&D edition I don't know enough to the point of good arguments, 1E.

In AD&D2E and 3E Fighters were mostly sidekicks, unless you missed all quadratic wizards vs linear fighter debates or you never played a mid to high level in these editions.

 

[DMKastmaria]

The PCs look around and examine things, they are rewarded for interacting with the environment by learning about the world through these sort of descriptions. It's not meta-gaming, because the first-time player has just as much chance of looking around as the old timer. The old timer just knows to ask already, and so the new guy learns to do the same. It's a nice feedback loop.

What's more...

Yes. Most players are going to recognize stirges. Orcs. Trolls.

Now, I could make them roll an intelligence check, to see what info their PC might have.

But, when it comes to simple, common monsters, I'm not going to. In a world where trolls actually exist and are as common as the 1e Encounter Tables suggest, then everyone and their grandmother will have heard about the rubbery, long-nosed monsters that can only be killed by fire.

Of course, I might also use NPC's to sow some misinformation into the campaign. "Sorry, but it looks like trolls aren't really allergic to cinnamon!"

At a certain point, fretting about metagaming just gets in the way.

 

[avin]

I'm inclined "to some balance is better than 4E balance" all day but, please, don't give me more of the Wizard vs Fighter is balanced in earlier editions.

That's just not true.

Maybe in OD&D which I never played.

 

[P1NBACK]

What army? What tower? You're assuming every edition/campaign works like that?

Ah! You're using my argument against me!

That's my point, dude. You can't compare mechanic A to mechanic B in a vacuum, across 10 editions of the game.

I said Fighters have been tough and durable in all of my campaigns. I've played B/X, 2E, 3.x, Pathfinder, 4E + several other clones and D&D-esque games. The Fighters have always been useful and welcome at our tables.

In my humble opinion, this "fighter sucks" argument is mostly born of 3.x optimizers arguing from a vacuum. Lots of these guys never even play campaigns. They just sit on the boards, read the books and build characters - and when their CharOp fighter doesn't seem to do as much damage or have as much AC as the "druid" or whatever, then it's these cries we hear. Not to mention Fighters lost their strongholds and followers in 3.x (yuck).

So, yeah, I don't think I've ever really seen a worthless fighter in my many campaigns, over several editions of play.

My campaigns may be the exception though.

Of course, when I see guys like Klaus stating that Human Fighter is the most popular character, well, I have to wonder why if it's such a crappy class...

 

[DMKastmaria]

In AD&D2E and 3E Fighters were mostly sidekicks, unless you missed all quadratic wizards vs linear fighter debates or you never played a mid to high level in these editions.

Can't really speak about 2e.

As for 1e and what the DM introduces, allows, etc., well...

I run player driven campaigns. I've been doing it for 30 years. And the rules assume that yes, the fighter is going to have some kick butt gear, by the time he/she is high level.

Also, MU's can't cast spells, unless they can remain relatively still and undisturbed. A strict reading of the DMG, implies that an MU isn't going to be able to do much of anything, but use wands, etc., if someone's waving a sword in his face. Given the 1 minute round, I allow spellcasters to get off spells with a casting time of 1 segment or less, when directly engages in melee. Because I'm nice!

3e. Lots of problems there. I ran one high level 3e game. The thief absolutely sucked! The only Fighter was this samurai/sword saint/whatever that was a whirlwind of death and played second fiddle to no one!

The Druid was a monster from 7th to 12th level, then started falling behind everyone else.

The sorceress rocked.

The cleric, of course, absolutely rocked toast!

Honestly, with all the min/maxing going on, if you played a fighter type in 3.x and sucked at high levels, please speak up? What classes did you play?

Scaling saves and caster checks were problematic in 3.x. Another reason I prefer 1e by far!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I absolutely love when people compare mechanics in a vacuum.

What spell was that? What is the Wizard doing about that as the Fighter's army is storming his tower? What happens when the Fighter wins initiative and slays the Wizard in one hit or disrupts his spell every turn? What if the Fighter has equally powerful magical swords or items that protect him from magic?

How did PCs ever defeat evil wizards if it was such a simple calculation?

"Sorry guys, the BBEG in this campaign is a wizard. All you fighters should just re-roll new characters."

Sorry, but in 3.x that was actually sadly true. Your example wworks for ADnD. But 3.x removed nearly everything going for the fighter. Not on purpose, i guess, but still. 4e remedied this problem in an intersting way.

The 4e fighter, stripped of all his powers, keeping his class features could work very well in an ADnD enviroment. The 3.x fighter also would work. (ADnD saves, initiative system would all help him not beeing hit by the mage all the time)

 

[P1NBACK]

Sorry, but in 3.x that was actually sadly true. Your example wworks for ADnD. But 3.x removed nearly everything going for the fighter. Not on purpose, i guess, but still. 4e remedied this problem in an intersting way.

The 4e fighter, stripped of all his powers, keeping his class features could work very well in an ADnD enviroment. The 3.x fighter also would work. (ADnD saves, initiative system would all help him not beeing hit by the mage all the time)

We're playing B/X right now, so that's sort of where I was coming from with that particular post. Still, I played 3.x for years, and we never had a problem with Fighters being pointless characters. Maybe we played it wrong?

Granted, we never really went past 12th or so level. So, maybe this is a higher level issue?