Write this game for adults

Oni

First Post
You're misinterpreting the statistics.

A hard-to-read text doesn't mean the author is brilliant. It means that he's a poor communicator who can't write effectively enough to be understood.

The point of readability indices isn't to get the "highest score" so that you can feel superior to everyone else.

That is a gross simplification. Just as a simple writing style doesn't mean the author is a poor writer, neither does a more complex writing style that challenges the reader somehow have to mean the author is an ineffective communicator.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Gunning Fog index of 13.51. I guess it's 'trepidation' and 'arbiter' that do it.

This latter part of the ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS project I approached with no small amount of trepidation. After all, the game's major appeal is to those persons with unusually active imagination and superior, active intellect -- a very demanding audience indeed. Furthermore, a great majority of readers master their own dungeons and are necessarily creative -- the most critical audience of all! Authoring these works means that, in a way, I have set myself up as final arbiter of fantasy role playing in the minds of the majority of D&D adventurers. Well, so be it, I rationalized.​
What makes this hard to read is, in my view, not the vocabulary - a dictionary will help with that - but the syntax.

The syntax is Object-Subject-Verb-Adverb. Which is already a bit stilted in English.

Then look at the phrases. Object noun phrase "This latter part of the ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS project". Adverbial phrase "with no small amount of trepidation".

And the other problem is that the content is bascially vacuous. I mean, Gygax is not the first author to say "I was anxious when I started working on this book", but it's hardly gripping stuff, and doesn't really become more gripping just by upping the lexcical and syntactic complexity.

I more relaxed and personal authorial voice would be welcome.
Sure, although it also starts to depend a bit on the author. For instance, I don't particularly care for the tone of the author of the core HARP rulebook.

Heroes of the Feywild

<snip>

It's a great book, and I absolutely devoured it. The clarity of language is still there, as is the clarity of rules.

<snip>

RPG books absolutely need to be accessible. I know that some folks would prefer to only read books that are challenging, but I don't think that's the right approach for a game book that's intended to appeal to adults but also to mature children and teenagers.
I don't need my game books to be challenging. I need them to give me a good idea of how to play the game.

Personally, Heroes of the Feywild didn't do a lot for me - the rules are fine, but the prose is neither here nor there. If I want to read a fairy story I'll pick up Tolkien, or read one to my kids. My favourite 4e book for story elements is the original MM: most of the fiction is clear and to the point, there's not too much of it (not like the drivel I quoted upthread about Living Spells) and the mechanics are crisp (though in retrospect there are the known issues with some of the solos, and with upper level damage). By "crisp" mechanics I mean that I can read a stat block and (i) get a feel for how a monster might play, and (ii) therefore work out how a monster can play a useful story role.

What I don't want in a gamebook is lots of fiction which may or may not be evocative (personally I've never read gamebook fiction that does much for me), but isn't related to the game - doesn't reflect or express how the game will play.

The rulebooks I've read recently, besides 4e ones, are Moldvay Basic, Runequest and lots of Burning Wheel. What is striking about the BW rulebooks is that the tone of the book - which is very distinctive - reinforces the way the game plays.

A simple example of this (from memory): when explaining, in the Adventure Burner (which is something like BW's GM's guide), how Let it Ride works, Luke Crane gives as an example as a change in circumstances that will permit a retest "your finery gets covered in blood/mud/s**t". Why this struck me isn't just that it's a bit provocative, in a juvenile sort of way: it also tells you that, in this game, it matters if you're wearing finery, and it matters if your finery gets soiled. That is, players are expected to ask for advantage dice when they talk to kings in their finery, and the GM is expected to make them recheck - perhaps with a penalty - when the PCs return to the court covered in mud, blood and/or excrement.

One of the problems for me with Heroes of the Feywild is that it has all this stuff about pixies painting the dew on the grass, and the rainbow in the sky, and so on, but doesn't make it part of the game. The Manual of the Planes has similar issues when it talks about the brightness of the Feywild and the oppression of the Shadowfell. Contrast with this the cards in the Shadowfell box set, or the sample skill challenges in Plane Below and Demonomicon, which (although not always as good as they might be) show me how the oppressive character of the Feywild or of the Abyss actually takes on life in the play of the game and the resolution of action.

TL;DR - I don't want evocative fiction, I want rules that make it clear what the game is about (actually about, in play, not what the designer wishes it was about) and makes me want to care about that.
 


JamesonCourage

Adventurer
You're misinterpreting the statistics.

A hard-to-read text doesn't mean the author is brilliant. It means that he's a poor communicator who can't write effectively enough to be understood.
Well, my point was that it doesn't take 20-40 years of school to understand my writing. Is it more advanced than, say, the newspaper? Yes. But the methods employed by the link don't really prove anything to me. Not even how clear something is to read (considering how off it was).

My "brilliance" comment was sarcasm. I'm not smarter, or anything. I'm not even a poor communicator (most of the time). As I was writing it, my friends read it with no problems. There was no massive confusion.

The point of readability indices isn't to get the "highest score" so that you can feel superior to everyone else.
Well, I did go on to say:
JamesonCourage said:
I'm all for writing at a decently low level. Obviously, you can dip too low, here, but the game needs clarity, inspiring text, and implied themes (violence, intrigue, danger, etc.). Nothing needs to be over the top or so low that it's painful to read. Nothing needs to be bogged down by its own weight, or simply repetitive and fluffy. The text just need to be there being inspiring, thematic, and clear.

Just create that spark, and then get out of the way as my imagination takes off. That's all you need to do.
There's a happy medium, somewhere, and I don't think it's a small target. As always, play what you like :)
 

Zireael

Explorer
Most classic books are full of 'politically incorrect' and 'morally incorrect' stuff, by today's standards. The stories are full of death, violence, hatred, passion, love, sex and even worse things. So while a modern hero will shoot a ''Zapamundo'' and knock a bad guy out, the classic hero would ''decapitate his foe with a swipe of his sword and clean the blood of his blade on his shirt''.

True, and there is no reason to shy away from such topics or to present them in immature ways (chainmail bikini is an example).

I'd prefer it if D&D Next was similar in style to OD&D or AD&D - that is, fluff and rules both, without unnecessary redundancy or "using short words and short sentences" I saw in 4e.
 

DracoDruid

Villager
I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know where the discussion ended, so I will just answer to the OP:

I don't care about half-naked women. I'm okay with that, but since this game is also for children/teens in the USA, we should avoid them. Here in germany, we have naked boobs in the ads and its no big deal. You might enjoy our shampoo commercials... ;)


But what I REALLY miss in D&D3/3.5/4.0/PF is the artwork and the real paper from the old editions.
These where real ART and had a COMPLETE different feeling than those comic styled pictures printed on high-gloss paper.

The reason why we avoided the transcent from AD&D to 3.0 was that it felt so artificial. It felt pure mechanical and lost all its fantastic charm.

I really think, D&D needs this back!

I do understand the benefits of more robust paper, but the game lost part of its charm I say.
 
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Otakkun

Explorer
We 30- somethings are the ones with all the money. We're either buying it for ourselves or buying it for our kids. It had better well cater to us!

When I was 10 or so, my parents bought me my first RPG. The game contributed - in a small way - to my education. It helped sharpen my vocabulary and my math skills, amongst other things. The world of literature it led me into exercised my mind, and was part of the reason I grew up with above average literary skills.

The game didn't dumb itself down for me. It challenged me. And that challenge is what made it attractive.

I owe Gygax & Co. a good deal.

And that very challenging nature is WHY my parents bought me a weird uncool game. The role of these games was beyond that of mere entertainment.

so.very.true.

Couldn't give you exp, but this post summarises my feelings on D&D. Somewhere along the way, someone got ashamed about D&D being for nerds. I'm not.
 

Adult is not the same thing as sexual, or rather it is not limited to sexuality. It includes violence, cruelty, responsibility and other issues. It is also conveyed by the writing (somewhat different thread) and over all tone.

Give me writing at least on a 10th grade level. That will help with the adult issue. Writing on a 7th grade level makes it childish.
 

Tsuga C

Adventurer
And Get the **** Off My **** Lawn! ;-)

I started with the Basic Set in 1979 when I was a 12 year-old Tolkien-o-phile and then quickly moved on to AD&D in 1980. The 1E books were written by adult wargamers for a literate demographic of bright high schoolers and college students. I still have my near-pristine PHB, MM, DMG, D&D, and FF. Why did I keep them all of these years even though my actual playing of D&D waned considerably?

Two reasons: 1) AD&D was an important childhood touchstone; 2) the books were aimed at an educated, reasonably sophisticated demographic, not a grabasstic hoard of zit-popping button mashers. From time to time I still pull out one or more of my books and read through them for sake of entertainment and nostalgia because they were that well written. The same cannot be said of the lifeless dreck WotC churned out for 4E.

It's high time that they recognize their mistake and accept and remedy it in 5E by starting with the assumption that their audience is both literate and intelligent. Any tabletop RPG designed to appeal to the least common denominator will fail in spades because the people willing to spend 4-6 hours once or twice per week gathered around a table to roleplay and engage in good-natured arguments over weapon speeds and "to hit" adjustments of customized gear aren't going to be satisfied with dull, ultra-streamlined prose and rulesets. We're better than that and we demand more.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Adult is not the same thing as sexual, or rather it is not limited to sexuality. It includes violence, cruelty, responsibility and other issues. It is also conveyed by the writing (somewhat different thread) and over all tone.

Give me writing at least on a 10th grade level. That will help with the adult issue. Writing on a 7th grade level makes it childish.

For me, it's nothing at all to do with the content. It's all to do with the writing style.

Play a dragonborn if:
- You want to be scaly.

...is a style of writing which doesn't just fail to engage me, it pushes me away. It says to me "You, an adult, are playing a game designed for children".

I also refuse to believe that a young teenager is bamboozled by paragraphs. I was able to handle the horror of the paragraph when I was young, and I'm pretty sure I wasn't a child prodigy or anything.
 

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