Write this game for adults

[Morrus]

Outside of the hobby, many folks I know and talk to would say everything about D&D games is written just for kids.

At this point, I don't think outside the hobby is a priority. WotC's focus was in getting new kids to play with 4E, and the result was that half their player base defected to Pathfinder. The message was clear. Now, their priority needs to.be getting those customers back, not trying the same thing and expecting different results.

Yeah, there's a bunch of new young D&D players. There's a lot more old D&D players who are now Pathfinder players.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

As much as I would like to agree with the OP, as much as I would like the books written with adults (me) as a target audience, I don't think it would be a good idea.

Most of the people I've met who play RPGs started before they hit twenty. This is the audience that needs to be addressed by the books to grow the market, which WOTC needs to do. The rest of us will buy the books anyway as long as the rules are good.

Personally, I would like to see the rules written in Gary's style, but that might be a bit of a barrier to new people wanting to play. {EDIT} On second thought, I started playing AD&D at 12 years old (Basic at 10). I might be underestimating kids' ability to absorb such stuff. On the other hand, I may not be typical since I grew up reading the King James Bible, which tends to make you pretty good at figuring out obscure meaning from context.

 

[am181d]

I disagree - in part. Gygax was half-writing the DMG for himself.

What I get when I read Gygax is a tone of "Hey, guys! Here's something I find really cool! And I'm pretty sure you'd like it too!" And it's got all the challenge to understand of an enthusiast who doesn't think to slow down to come out and say what, to them, is obvious (and who you can't interrupt to ask what they mean because it's a book).

That's fair. But it's worth pointing out that Gygax wasn't (by rule of physics) a lifelong RPGer when he wrote the AD&D books.

There's a history in niche hobbies for fans to take control of the hobby and "pull the ladder up." They redirect the hobby to producing things they've always wanted to see and stop worrying about producing the things that got them into the hobby in the first place. As a result, fewer young people discover the hobby and the hobby base contracts towards extinction.

That's why, as much as I want 5e to be my favorite version of D&D ever, I'd also be happy if it wasn't, as long as it brought it a new generation of players.

 

[OnlineDM]

At this point, I don't think outside the hobby is a priority. WotC's focus was in getting new kids to play with 4E, and the result was that half their player base defected to Pathfinder. The message was clear. Now, their priority needs to.be getting those customers back, not trying the same thing and expecting different results.

Yeah, there's a bunch of new young D&D players. There's a lot more old D&D players who are now Pathfinder players.

You know, I almost always agree with the Guvnor, but in this case I don't. I understand that WotC is aiming to attract non-4e players back to D&D with D&D Next. I don't think that means that they should abandon the idea of attracting new players, nor do I expect them to do so.

As I said, read Heroes of the Feywild. THAT is a good way to write a D&D book. Clear rules language with evocative prose throughout. Still accessible to a new audience, and still enchanting for experienced RPGers (at least in my opinion). Since that is one of their most recent books, I consider this to be an encouraging sign for the writing in D&D Next.

To be clear, their most recent book, Heroes of the Elemental Chaos, also did a good job in this regard; it was just not quite as good as Heroes of the Feywild in my view.

 

[technoextreme]

Most classic books are full of 'politically incorrect' and 'morally incorrect' stuff, by today's standards. The stories are full of death, violence, hatred, passion, love, sex and even worse things. So while a modern hero will shoot a ''Zapamundo'' and knock a bad guy out, the classic hero would ''decapitate his foe with a swipe of his sword and clean the blood of his blade on his shirt''.

You transparently don't watch many kids cartoons do you. I can beat death, violence, hatred, passion, love, and sex without even batting an eye with the only cartoon show on television that actively references D&D.

As I said, read Heroes of the Feywild. THAT is a good way to write a D&D book. Clear rules language with evocative prose throughout. Still accessible to a new audience, and still enchanting for experienced RPGers (at least in my opinion). Since that is one of their most recent books, I consider this to be an encouraging sign for the writing in D&D Next.

All Heroes of the Feywild did was make me realize how much D&D rips off actual fantasy and to dust off my copy of Grimm Fairy Tales. In fact it was really pissing me the hell off because I knew that they basically copied fairy tales word for word from it but I couldn't remember the name of them.

So the answer is to dumb down the books until even the existing players grow sick of them?

Writing to the level of the lolspeak crowd will drive away the more intelligent players.

Honestly most of the stuff that comes off as incredibly stilted to me in previous editions is stuff that actively references older editions. I think I actually yelled out loud,"What type of idiotic name is Melf?", when I read the previews for Heroes of the Elemental Chaos.

 

[Dausuul]

At this point, I don't think outside the hobby is a priority. WotC's focus was in getting new kids to play with 4E, and the result was that half their player base defected to Pathfinder. The message was clear. Now, their priority needs to.be getting those customers back, not trying the same thing and expecting different results.

Yeah, there's a bunch of new young D&D players. There's a lot more old D&D players who are now Pathfinder players.

Is there, in fact, a bunch of new young D&D players? I wonder. I can't imagine, as a kid (or as an adult!), being engaged or excited by the early 4E books. Now, maybe kids these days are different, but I suspect they're not as different as all that. D&D of any edition, even BD&D and 4E, is a hugely complicated game requiring a big up-front time investment. To get people to pick up a game like that, you have to really sell them on it with something that fires their imagination. A big textbook o' rules, however slick and well-formatted, is not enough.

Now, I haven't looked at the recent stuff like "Heroes of the Feywild," so I'll take everybody's word for it that the quality improved. But it's a bit late to sell the kids on 4E now.

I'm not convinced that "keep the grognards" and "snag the newbies" are such contradictory goals.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Honestly most of the stuff that comes off as incredibly stilted to me in previous editions is stuff that actively references older editions. I think I actually yelled out loud,"What type of idiotic name is Melf?", when I read the previews for Heroes of the Elemental Chaos.

Melf is an indefensible name. It is lame. How could it get worse than Melf I wonder.......

(What if Melf was a playtest character)

Melf

Melf is an elf. Elves live in the woods and shoot bows. They build their homes in the trees. Pretty neat huh? Play an elf if you want:

To have pointed ears like Spock.

To be able to answer the question: does a bear in the woods?

To shoot a bow real good.

 

[Ranes]

Outside of the hobby, many folks I know and talk to would say everything about D&D games is written just for kids.

Sure but given that the opinion is of those outside the hobby - and therefore is the opinion of those who don't read the material - it must be informed by cursory analysis of the subject matter, not the writing style.

Not that I'd argue with it.

OD&D and 1e were definitely not written for kids. Every other edition, including BECMI, was written with accessibility across age groups in mind. That's what I want from the writing style of any future edition.

 

[technoextreme]

Melf is an indefensible name. It is lame. How could it get worse than Melf I wonder.......

Bigby?? Rigby??? Medium Rary??? Jim Ward spelled backwards??? Anagram of Vance??? Someone whose last name is Kas???? Gygax spelled backwards???" Drizzt Do'Urden ???

 

[Morrus]

You know, I almost always agree with the Guvnor, but in this case I don't. I understand that WotC is aiming to attract non-4e players back to D&D with D&D Next. I don't think that means that they should abandon the idea of attracting new players, nor do I expect them to do so.

Then you misunderstand me. The long term goal must - if course - be growth. The short term goal should be consolidation. Consolidation then expansion.

No business can do both at the same time. You can build a sports car or a family offroad SUV. If you try to build both into one car, you get a horrible compromise with no vision or direction.

So. Consolidate. Get those older players back. Secure your foundation. Then expand.

It's basic Business 101. I would be willing to bet real money that doing both at the same time will achieve neither.