High-Tech Forces vs. High-Magic Forces

[Dannyalcatraz]

The magical side also has better information gathering ability ranging from speak with dead over domination (to get prisoners to talk) to actual divinations. And when the modern army pulls out the nukes, the magical army can simply wish that the nukes detonate before they are fired (imo a rather low powered wish). Also, not even a nuke can penetrate a wall of force.

The magical side has different intelligence capabilities over modern forces, not necessarily better...depending upon whose world is involved. Magic can't quite match satellite imagery for range & precision.

And while a nuke (arguably) can't penetrate a wall of force*, once that wall goes down, the caster will be subject to radiation poisoning. Also, a WoF lets light pass through freely, and it's likely that the intense visible light would simply fry the person it protects. He would definitely be blinded.







* I say arguably, since a WoF can be disintegrated, and a Sphere of Annihilation will also destroy it- effects mirrored in the heart of an atomic explosion.

 

[Derren]

The magical side has different intelligence capabilities over modern forces, not necessarily better...depending upon whose world is involved. Magic can't quite match satellite imagery for range & precision.

And while a nuke (arguably) can't penetrate a wall of force*, once that wall goes down, the caster will be subject to radiation poisoning. Also, a WoF lets light pass through freely, and it's likely that the intense visible light would simply fry the person it protects. He would definitely be blinded.


* I say arguably, since a WoF can be disintegrated, and a Sphere of Annihilation will also destroy it- effects mirrored in the heart of an atomic explosion.

A nuclear explosion is heat (see sun), not disintegration.

Also I would say that Clairvoyance and Scrying tops satellites as it is real time (despite what Hollywood says, satellites can't do real time very good or for long) and unaffected by all cover except lead while satellites can be blocked by clouds or most underground complexes.

Magic is also much more useful for interrogation as it can, first and foremost, allow you to understand the prisoner, discern lies with 100% effectivity or force a prisoner to talk while the tech army has to resort to normal torture and maybe some drugs if they can actually understand what the prisoner says.
At least in 3E curing diseases and blindness was rather easy, too.

 

[wingsandsword]

A nuclear explosion is heat (see sun), not disintegration.

What is "disintegration" then? The net effect of that much thermal energy is that molecules are shattered and everything within 10 or 20 feet is reduced to superheated vapor. Sure sounds like a disintegration effect with a scientific rationale.

So, would you try to argue that being immune to fire damage makes you immune to a nuclear weapon? What about the overpressure, would that just be sonic damage?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A nuclear explosion is heat (see sun), not disintegration.

Not all of it- there is concussive force and energy released in all electromagnetic wavelengths, including intense and damaging visible light.

Effects of nuclear explosions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you're near the explosion, you may have to deal with nuclear fission/fusion. You will also have to deal with kinetic energy. Yes, while the concussive force of the attack cannot Penetrate the force field, the field will find itself in an empty space formerly occupied by vaporized land. Without an anchor point, either the protective sphere will fall into the depths of the crater, or it will be moved along the by the blast's winds. Either way, those inside will be tossed like dice in a cup.

Also I would say that Clairvoyance and Scrying tops satellites as it is real time (despite what Hollywood says, satellites can't do real time very good or for long) and unaffected by all cover except lead while satellites can be blocked by clouds or most underground complexes.

Clairvoyance has a range measured in feet.

Scrying, while essentially infinite in range, depends upon the skills of a uniquely talented and powerful individual, who cannot fully multitask.

In contrast, satellite imagery has a range of thousands of miles, and is not dependent on the skills of a single person. Instead, such imagery is done by teams of specialists, and destroying one person or one team still leaves the capacity unhhampered. In addition, destroying the satellite and/or its operators will not reduce the offensive strike capability of the military, just it's accuracy...whereas, killing a scrying wizard significantly hurts all aspects of the force he is a member of.

 

[wingsandsword]

Years ago there was a thread here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...s-change-you-int-member-different-race-5.html

Where the whole point was that if you, real-world you, could choose to be turned into a specific creature race/type from any D&D book, what would it be?

A common answer, and a very munchkin one, was LeShay, from the 3e Epic Level Handbook. It's essentially the most uber-Elf you've ever seen, physically is essentially an elf with white hair and pale eyes, and a CR 28 to go along with it.

I ran across that thread last night, and realized just how ridiculously powerful that epic-level race could be on modern real-world Earth, or even the Urban Arcana setting for d20 Modern which posited an Earth that coexists alongside other D&D worlds as just an alternate material plane (albeit one where magic is weaker).

On my long commute to work this morning, I started thinking about how a single LeShay could conquer the world. Seeing this thread again rise made me think about the subject even more.

One LeShay could conquer the Earth. One. Wouldn't even have to make a single attack roll. By the time it came to attack rolls, Earth would be more on the side of the LeShay than the people trying to stop him.

First, you've got a CHA of 47, with a Bluff skill of +71 and a Diplomacy skill of +77, and a continuous Charm Monster gaze (DC 53). Looking at the Diplomacy skill rules, that means with just a full-round action they can turn somebody from Hostile to Friendly. . .guaranteed. With a second full-round action they can make their attitude Fanatic for 18 days: so loyal they will fight to the death and even get a +2 bonus to STR and CON. If you spend 12 seconds with somebody they can go from being willing to kill you, to willing to die for you, and that's with no saving throw, leaving out that Charm Monster gaze.

Even if targets are completely immune to Mind Affecting effects, that only negates the Charm Monster gaze and the Fanatic attitude (but not Friendly).

A Bluff skill of +71 means that even a ridiculously outrageous lie is totally believable unless the subject has at absolute least a Sense Motive bonus of +33 (to see through it on a natural 20).

Think what that can do with public speaking. People have changed the course of world history with a lot less.

Combine that with Detect Thoughts at-will (DC 30) and a +24 Gather Information and +59 to Listen, Search and Spot. You're going to be incredible at finding out information as well.

Add in an INT of 33 for ability to plan and scheme.

Then realize you have Alter Self as an at-will spell-like ability, Greater Teleport at-will, +71 on your Disguise skill, and the Polyglot feat (which lets you naturally speak all languages). You can flawlessly teleport anywhere in the world on only a few seconds notice, look like anybody, speak any language. With the Knowledge: Local +59 of a LeShay, you'll also know the traditions, cultures, legends and ways of pretty much every community and society on the planet, definitely enough to blend in as a local and relate to eveyone as if you're one of them.

Hide and Move Silently of +70, plus Greater Invisibility at will, and when combined with your Greater Teleport, you basically go anywhere and nobody notices you.

Then look at your defenses. You've got 825 HP, an AC of 52, DR 15/Epic AND Cold Iron, immune to all poisons and diseases, Fast Healing 10, and a +66 Concentration to try to cast Greater Teleport or Heal in the middle of a fight. Fortitude save of +29, Reflex save of +44, and Will save of +35. . . and an Armor Class of 52 (touch AC 47), and a +21 bonus to initiative.

A lone LeShay can take the form of any person on Earth, speaking any language, and go anywhere, speaking to individuals or groups for only seconds and turning them into utterly loyal followers, even former enemies. Not constrained by any Earthly barriers or borders, able to be in Hollywood at 12:00, Tokyo at 12:05, Paris at 12:10, and Washington at 12:15, having made allies and learned valuable information at each place. They might not even know you're the same person thanks to disguises. You could singlehandedly look like an world-spanning organization that somehow has perfect communication amongst its members.

You could quickly network your way into legitimate appointments with world leaders. . .who within moments are more loyal to you than their own countries. Inside of a week you could have everybody from billionaires to Kings and Presidents as absolutely loyal subjects. Gifts of money could have you as a multi-billionaire in your own right, getting diplomatic immunity wouldn't be too hard when you have heads of state who take their marching orders from you. Before long you could probably end up as absolute monarch of a small country.

Turn invisible and walk around hospitals randomly casting Heal on the terminally ill. Build up goodwill with a de facto cure for anything. With a Charisma of 47 and the ability to appear anywhere in the world and cure virtually any disease or mental illness and even grievous trauma? You could start a religion like that real quick.

Finding an Epic Weapon on Earth is not likely, and even most military small arms are unlikely to break 15 points of damage in a single hit without a lot of bonuses from the operator, even then being able to inflict well over 800 points of damage before Greater Teleport can be cast is very unlikely with anything short of a nuclear weapon or an entire infantry battalion opening fire simultaneously. The stats for a Hellfire Missile are in d20 Modern Menace Manual. . .and he could easily survive several direct hits, so a strike from a Predator UCAV (Drone) would just rough him up a litle.

With as many friends as he would have, just trying to stop him with force would start World War III (or make whoever tried it the most wanted criminals in the world), even if it failed.

If this was the antagonist to an adventure (or the pointman for an invading force), by the time the PC's might even realize something is when every major world leader and the CEO's of every major world corporation all appear to be on the same page about something, even when it's a complete turnaround in policy and might not be in their best interest normally. . .right as a rash of dozens of miraculous cures appear at a hospital somewhere and rumors are surfacing about some mysterious messiah who can cure any disease with just a touch, if you'll just sit down and talk with him for a few moments, and if they manage to track him down they find he's legally protected as the Ambassador from another country (or perhaps even the King/Emperor of that nation) and any direct attack on him is severely punished under law.

. . .all in a world where the highest level characters only go up to Level 20, and spells only go up to 5th level (or with complex "incantation" rules, up to 7th level as complicated and expensive rituals).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Bizzare double post due to traveling mobile device...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

One LeShay could conquer the Earth. One. Wouldn't even have to make a single attack roll. By the time it came to attack rolls, Earth would be more on the side of the LeShay than the people trying to stop him.

...assuming someone didn't notice the mind-bending effects it had on those in its vicinity, and didn't simply try to kill it at range. Handgun...sniper rifle...ICBM.

...assuming it didn't overplay its hand and try to get someone merely friendly to it to do something radically against their self interest (it is not a magical effect, after all)

...assuming those it convinced to aid it were very persuasive themselves.

I'm not saying it couldn't do what you say, just that it isn't a cakewalk. It may end up bring every bit as surprised as Loki was recently...

 

[wingsandsword]

...assuming someone didn't notice the mind-bending effects it had on those in its vicinity, and didn't simply try to kill it at range. Handgun...sniper rifle...ICBM.

What Earth handgun could take down a being with an AC of 52, flat footed AC of 35, with DR 15/Epic & Cold Iron and 825 HP (and Displacement for a 50% miss chance if it has a round to put that spell-like ability up as well)? Even a Desert Eagle .50AE is doing 2d8, so it has a 1:64 chance of doing a single point of damage. . .which heals up the next round thanks to Fast Healing 10.

Even a critical hit at maximum damage would only do 2 points of damage, well less than 1% of its HP and it would heal that in moments.

He would have to be getting hit with 640 attacks a round just to damage him enough that his fast healing wouldn't catch up, and with his AC that high he's basically only hit on a Natural 20 by anything short of a min-maxed 20th level character, so 1200+ people simultaneously opening fire with 2d8 weapons (like M16's or AK-47's.) just to start to whittle down at his HP, double that if it has even a single round of prep-time for Displacement and doesn't flee instantly.. . .and after 1 round (and a make-it-on-a-one) Concentration check he can Greater Teleport out, Heal up, Disguise/Alter Self, Teleport again, and go and Diplomacy some people in places of leadership of another nation into going to war with whatever country just tried that stunt (and maybe more subterfuge to infiltrate that army and undermine them. Being immune to all poisons and diseases could mean you would have no fear of using CBRN warfare yourself).

For that matter, what sniper could do 800+ points of damage in one hit, or even one round? The main cannon of an M1 Abrams tank is doing 10d12, which after DR would take 17 hits (assuming average damage) to drop it. It would take an entire army to drop it in a straight-up fight.

No AdC or PrC in d20 Modern that I can think of gives an assassin-like instant death ability for a sniper, the closest is the 5th level ability of the Sniper PrC, which lets him spend an Action Point to automatically turn a hit into a critical hit. The Barret .50cal is the highest damage sniper rifle, at 2d12. With an average damage of 13 it won't even break the DR on a typical hit without some extra abilities that make ranged weapon hits do more, and I can't find any of those yet.

Yeah, an ICBM would probably do it. Then again, you'd have to get the drop on it to do that, and when you can be anywhere on the planet in 6 seconds and ICBM's have travel times around 30 minutes or so. . .and if your target tends to stay in major cities would you nuke a major world city to stop it. . .especially since there is a very good chance it won't be there by the time the weapon goes off? Basically you'd have to be willing to nuke any specific place on the globe without reservation since he could hide there, then you'd have to know for sure he was there, and then be able to either keep him from fleeing or keep him completely unaware for around 30 minutes. . .and then hope that a nuclear weapon does more than 825 points of damage.

...assuming it didn't overplay its hand and try to get someone merely friendly to it to do something radically against their self interest (it is not a magical effect, after all)

Yeah, that's possible, but with a CHA of 47 and WIS of 23 I'd say it would be a while before he screwed up that bad.

...assuming those it convinced to aid it were very persuasive themselves.

Hence the idea of manipulating world leaders and the super-wealthy first. Getting the leaders of a few world powers, a few absolute dictators of countries, a few CEO's of the biggest companies on Earth, a few multi-billionaires on your side being Friendly can go a long way.

Put it this way: if the President of the United States, President of the Russian Federation, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Premier of China, President of France, the Pope, the Secretary General of the United Nations, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were all Fanatically loyal to you personally to the point they'd be willing to die for you. . .you'd basically rule the world, if only from the shadows.

I'm not saying it couldn't do what you say, just that it isn't a cakewalk. It may end up bring every bit as surprised as Loki was recently...

I'm not saying he's invincible, but I think a lone CR 28 LeShay would be more able to conquer the world than a lot higher CR monsters because many of it's skill set and spell-like abilities could be extremely powerful in a modern-day setting. . .and it's epic-level AC, DR, and HP mean it would be very hard to stop before it could retreat and heal up to full in only 6 rounds of Heal spells.

Defeating it would be on the same scale of taking on Loki, yes, and would be a radically different challenge than fighting the vast fielded armies otherwise discussed in this thread, and would probably be a huge high-level campaign-climax type adventure. I am not pretending it's utterly invincible and it's a foolproof plan, but it's a threat greater than its CR would otherwise imply if played smartly and taking over the world is very plausible.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I personally know jack all about LeShay, however:

He would have to be getting hit with 640 attacks a round just to damage him enough that his fast healing wouldn't catch up

A round is 6 seconds.

We already field weapons like the Vulcan that can do 100rd/sec with spent uranium rounds.

The metal storm prototype can do 17,000rd/sec.

The main cannon of an M1 Abrams tank is doing 10d12, which after DR would take 17 hits (assuming average damage) to drop it. It would take an entire army to drop it in a straight-up fight.

That may be how it's statted out, but I'd say that was a tad...low.

Yeah, an ICBM would probably do it. Then again, you'd have to get the drop on it to do that, and when you can be anywhere on the planet in 6 seconds and ICBM's have travel times around 30 minutes or so. . .

The question isn't whether he can avoid the ICBM, but rather can he recognize & identify it as a threat, and then act appropriately.

Unless he gets a heads up from the launch control OR from the country's defenses- either of which would assume he is in a location like the Kremlin or AF-1 OR has operative in that particular location AND he's not dismissing the notification because he's talking to someone else- he's not going to have a lot of time to ID and react. He won't see it unless he's looking right at it, and he won't hear it until it's too late.

Loki's hubris doomed him to failure as much as anything else, and he completely failed to recognize the true threat represented by The Hulk.

ICBM still too slow? How much you want to bet they'd rush one of the airplane-mounted lasers into the front line?

And of course, nukes. (See Failsafe.)

Any of which assumes the modern forces manage to do what I said the LeShay must do: recognize & identify it as a threat, and then act appropriately.

(FWIW, somewhere upthread is a nearly identical discussion of how a single spawning undead could take over the world...)

 

[Hussar]

In large numbers, far too many of the D&D monsters would simply overwhelm conventional armies. Commando squads of medusa, harpies, or anything else with that sort of area of affect always on ability would be devastating. Heck, magmin, in fairly small numbers, instantly kill anything within 20 feet of them.

Never mind what you could do with elementals.