High-Tech Forces vs. High-Magic Forces

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think people are seriously underestimating either sides ability to gain knowledge and adapt.

It is amazing how fast you learn about someone when they are actively trying to kill you.

Not me- but I also recognize their limitations.

1) Looking at the arcane invaders: assuming a mixed race force means fewer individuals who look human enough to infiltrate. Magic alleviates this somewhat, but not completely. Other means like screwing have limitations of range and their own peculiarities.

On the tech side, we have ridiculous satellite imagery, but it doesn't get you audio. By definition, there would be no transmissions epwe could monitor. Special forces can do some infiltration, but will have limitations of their own.

2) There is the language barrier: Common probably isn't English...or Chinese or any other language of our world, so your cryptographers would have to go to work. This isn't easy for them, either- remember how much trouble the Germans had breaking transmissions in Navajo and other Native American tongues? So an infiltrating agent- assuming he could pass off his inability to communicate as a personal deficiency- would probably have only the most basic understanding of operations. He could relate all of what he saw, but none of what he heard. Bugs have the same limitation.

And, of course, the same problem exists for the invaders, only amplified by the fact that so little of what we do resembles what they would. A medieval/fantasy war camp operates very differently than a modern base...or even a mobile camp. An infiltrating invader would not see field forges or men actually building weapons. He could find the machinists, but would have difficulty distinguishing between parts destined for attack choppers and those meant for jeeps...or which machines are the most crucial for making those parts.

3) Then there is the nature of the knowledge you need to acquire.

Both tech and magic have analogous limitations: any truly dangerous knowledge takes a lot of time to acquire and understand. To fight magic with magic requires study of the language, rituals and rules of magic; to fight tech with tech requires actually understanding the tech.

 

[tomBitonti]

Think about this: Imagine a headband of intellect + 6 being placed on the magic sides smartest guy. That would create an equivalent intelligence that the tech side has never seen (an int so high to make Einstein blush).

I was wondering what happens if you mix this: Give a +6 Int Headband to, say, Feynman. Mix modern information processing (e.g., computers, heavy duty collaboration through universities, high speed communications) with magical augmentation. Or, if you put in instantaneous communications matrices in computers as their main bus.

TomB

 

[Leatherhead]

How would you imagine a fight between a D&D-style horde and modern military forces?

The horde would take over an area the size of a small country or state.
Then a group of adventurers (A mix of special forces, mercenaries, desperate resistance members, and some layabouts along for the ride) would take out the entire horde.

That's how stories and campaigns always work. You would need like 14 people tops.

 

[prosfilaes]

A big problem would be either side's actual ability to even comprehend the others capabilities.

Let's see; we're having this discussion. I think we win.

Why would there be a cleric of Pelor trying to stop him?

Because that's what clerics of Pelor do. If there's a real world behind the invading fantasy forces, they've got to deal with the constraints of that real world, and one of the constraints of a D&D world is that evil gods have good gods opposing them.

If we hand the modern forces free magic, then we have to hand the fantasy forces free technology. And that kinda makes the whole discussion moot - both forces are the same at that point.

That's like saying the Napoleonic forces and English forces were the same at Waterloo, so the discussion is moot.

One 8th-level cleric of Pelor converting, even if he can change people into first level clerics by opening his mouth, it won't make the sides equal. And one of the advantages the real world will has is that it can attract people from the fantasy side better than vice versa.

 

[Hussar]

He'll show up naked in another city, and be mistaken for a crazy person.

Which makes me ask this question: what happens if, by extreme coincidence, the arcane invasion occurs just as SkyNet goes actively malignant? If its bad enough, it radically changes the narrative- suddenly, the arcane invaders must team up with the remnants of humanity to stop the Terminators...

Heh, isn't that the basis for Shadowrun?

 

[Hussar]

/snip



Because that's what clerics of Pelor do. If there's a real world behind the invading fantasy forces, they've got to deal with the constraints of that real world, and one of the constraints of a D&D world is that evil gods have good gods opposing them.

/snip

Honestly, I think this is a fair point. We do have to be a bit more specific about what the Fantasy force is. Unlike our world, FantasyLand has alignments that have actual, real impacts. Dropping undead bombs is something that Good aligned forces won't do.

Granted, the nuclear option is pretty problematic too, but, honestly, mostly unnecessary anyway. Fuel Air Explosives are every bit as effective against virtually anything that FantasyLand armies can field. Never mind what you could do with helicopters.

As far as anything flying goes, you don't need to shoot them. Fly by at about Mach 2 and they go KERSPLAT in the sonic boom. The shock wave rips the wings off of any large flier quite nicely and, while an Air Elemental is quick, it's nowhere near that fast. Not sure how supersonic forces would affect it, but, I'm thinking it would get ripped to shreds.

But, at the end of the day, my vote is on the Technologicals simply for logistics. The Technologicals can replaces anything on the field at a rate that the Fantasylands can't even remotely match.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But, at the end of the day, my vote is on the Technologicals simply for logistics. The Technologicals can replaces anything on the field at a rate that the Fantasylands can't even remotely match.

...except spawning undead and gate-opening extraplanars.

ESPECIALLY Extraplanars wily and patient enough to reach out to our own occultists and teaching them to open gates.*









* if that is possible. If the practice of magic requires "the gift" or long-term exposure to a reality steeped in magic or some such, that factor may be lacking in most if not all of our population.

 

[prosfilaes]

...except spawning undead and gate-opening extraplanars.

That takes defining what type of force we're fighting. Goblins probably aren't going start summoning undead and demons; even if they can, unless they have them under control, the demons/undead will conquer or kill the goblins. If we're fighting things that have unlimited access to extraplanar forces, that's an entirely different matter.

ESPECIALLY Extraplanars wily and patient enough to reach out to our own occultists and teaching them to open gates.*

If we're fighting extraplanars, we might be in trouble. However, it wouldn't be long before individual occultists, or even a whole group of them, realized they were on the wrong side and told everything they knew to our side. Depending on how it worked, we could easily open gates to the Upper Planes, which would presumably swarm through to fight the demons.

Seriously, I think opening free gates to the lower planes is outside the realm of the discussion. I thought this was a fight with forces from a Toril/Oerth-style fantasy world, not forces from Hades.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, I gotta go with prosfilaes on this one. Heck, depending on system/setting, Fantasyland casters could possibly call down a god (or possibly more than one). At that point, ok, yup, Fantasyland wins.

There would need to be some pretty seriously set parameters.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Goblins probably aren't going start summoning undead and demons; even if they can, unless they have them under control, the demons/undead will conquer or kill the goblins.

Of course.

But if they are especially devoted to Maglubiyet, the entire point of the goblin invasion may be for the purpose of summoning him and his extraplanars minions into our world, to reshape it as a paradise for goblinkind.

In that case, that kind of magic would be part of their plan, and prep work for his great summoning ritual could begin as soon as the beachead was established.

However, it wouldn't be long before individual occultists, or even a whole group of them, realized they were on the wrong side and told everything they knew to our side.

That is assuming that they are, in D&D parlance, "good." And/or sane.

Besides, open a gate for the wrong being or the wrong place, and one gate might be all it takes to seal our doom...