High-Tech Forces vs. High-Magic Forces

[tomBitonti]

You're thinking like a RW human- how would the caster or Imp know that a particular weapon "blows up?" Could they even recognize the weapon for what it is?

And modern bombs are no longer big piles of gunpowder; many of them can only be detonated by an electric charge, not heat, fire or impact. And there's not going to be ways to detonate them just laying around; they're designed to be dropped or launched, not blown up on base.

I'd say that Telepathy and Charm Monster would let the Erinyes know how to make stuff blow up.

I think this answers a lot of the rest:

Their biggest defense is probably simply the opponent's lack of understanding of modern capabilities.

That is, the big problem here (for both sides) is knowledge. There will be hugely different results depending on whether both sides are unknowing, knowing, or if one side knows but the other doesn't know their opponents capabilities.

If the Erinyes came across years before the invasion, that would be a big deal. Or, if both sides started the fight expecting the same sort of opponents as themselves.

A big problem would be either side's actual ability to even comprehend the others capabilities.

Here's a different scenario: Lawful Evil cleric, 11'th level, goes undercover and offers to provide healing (in particular, Heal) to recruit turncoats. At 13'th level, you can add in Regenerate and start giving folks back lost limbs or organs.

Thx!

 

[Gentlegamer]

Gygax's "masses of 0th levellers" approach to feudal men-at-arms seems to have been derived from WW2 conscript armies*

Probably more inspired by Napoleonic armies.

The knight certainly trained longer than conscripts, but his real counterpart in modern warfare are special ops units, like Delta Force or Navy Seals, if we're talking about years of training and experience.

Even in his day, the knight was eventually bested by the development of pikemen and gunmen formations employed by 'less well trained' troops. It's not as much about the years of training but the 'state of war-tech.'

 

[S'mon]

Probably more inspired by Napoleonic armies.

The knight certainly trained longer than conscripts, but his real counterpart in modern warfare are special ops units, like Delta Force or Navy Seals, if we're talking about years of training and experience.

Special Ops to an extent; but also elite line units like US Airborne Rangers & Marine Force Recon, UK Parachute Regiment & Royal Marines; not just ultra-elites like SAS, SBS, Delta Force & SEALs. Knights did after all form the main force component of many armies.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Special Ops to an extent; but also elite line units like US Airborne Rangers & Marine Force Recon, UK Parachute Regiment & Royal Marines; not just ultra-elites like SAS, SBS, Delta Force & SEALs. Knights did after all form the main force component of many armies.

Yeah, the comparison isn't perfect due to the nature of war and roles in it. During the knight's time, his armor and steed made him nearly invincible to anything except another knight (until tech and tactics caught up and dethroned him as supreme on the battlefield). I guess my point is that there are very highly trained components of modern military that are what knights should be compared to instead of the rank-and-file enlisted/drafted.

 

[Morrus]

One question that keeps coming to mind is where's the other side? If a cleric of Nerull is importing shadows to New York City, where's the cleric of Pelor trying to stop him? Even one cleric with points in knowledge skills could be a huge boon to the real world, and it probably wouldn't be hard for him to gain some converts in this situation.

Why would there be a cleric of Pelor trying to stop him? If we hand the modern forces free magic, then we have to hand the fantasy forces free technology. And that kinda makes the whole discussion moot - both forces are the same at that point.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'd say that Telepathy and Charm Monster would let the Erinyes know how to make stuff blow up.

Yes, it lets the Eryines know what the Wiz does...but how do the invaders find out in the first place?

Simply put, sabotaging modern munitions requires a steep learning curve, and in many cases, may not be possible in the way you envision.

A nuke requires 2 people with passwords, launch codes, and physical keys...not to mention access passes. A modern artillery shell has to have its fuses set properly.

Heck, even our explosives aren't so simple anymore: I recently saw a demo of a high explosive you can actually set on fire- and it will burn quite nicely- but will not explode without the proper type of fuse.

 

[tomBitonti]

Yes, it lets the Eryines know what the Wiz does...but how do the invaders find out in the first place?

Simply put, sabotaging modern munitions requires a steep learning curve, and in many cases, may not be possible in the way you envision.

A nuke requires 2 people with passwords, launch codes, and physical keys...not to mention access passes. A modern artillery shell has to have its fuses set properly.

Heck, even our explosives aren't so simple anymore: I recently saw a demo of a high explosive you can actually set on fire- and it will burn quite nicely- but will not explode without the proper type of fuse.

Agreed on the first part, or, at least, that there is a knowledge/understanding problem. That goes to my point: How quickly does either side get an understanding of how the other side works?

I wasn't yet considering nukes. Just, say, how to take out a base with normal equipment. So no nukes, or chemical weapons.

If a devil with greater teleport (teleport without error) got several hundred pounds of high explosive in small parcels, with detonators and enough instruction to use them, I'd think they would have a very good chance of demolishing an airbase, or at least, of taking away any combat capability. A fuel depo would seem to be another easy target. Command and control is probably too distributed to completely take out. But, I think that a lot of the more advanced capabilities would be removed from the modern forces in short order. In particular, any equipment with high supply costs.

TomB

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If a devil with greater teleport (teleport without error) got several hundred pounds of high explosive in small parcels, with detonators and enough instruction to use them, I'd think they would have a very good chance of demolishing an airbase, or at least, of taking away any combat capability. A fuel depo would seem to be another easy target. Command and control is probably too distributed to completely take out. But, I think that a lot of the more advanced capabilities would be removed from the modern forces in short order. In particular, any equipment with high supply costs.

Again, the problem is getting the knowledge.

Shapechanging & charm effects makes it easier to gain, to be sure, but not easy.. There is a time factor, for one. Second, there is a discipline factor- demons might relish the potential of learning methods of modern warfare, given its destructive capability, but may lack the discipline & patience- and may relish personal combat too much- to actually follow through.


Devils, OTOH...maybe.

But if you look at THEIR powers and abilities, they would have some difficulty infiltrating a base to get the necessary knowledge in the first place.

 

[Stalker0]

I think people are seriously underestimating either sides ability to gain knowledge and adapt.

It is amazing how fast you learn about someone when they are actively trying to kill you.

That brings up a facet of this conversation I had not considered before: Magical bonus to intelligence and charisma.

Think about this: Imagine a headband of intellect + 6 being placed on the magic sides smartest guy. That would create an equivalent intelligence that the tech side has never seen (an int so high to make Einstein blush).

Or a charisma one, making a leader so charismatic and inspirational that people would follow him to the death (and we already have leaders like that, imagine them supercharged).

 

[Roland55]

I'm not sure I agree there, unless one is of the school of thought that guns do more damage than swords. A sword in the head is just as bad as a bullet.

Does it ever!

Still got a dent on my pate that proves that.